When Jesus said he would fulfill the law, did he also change it?

Colossians 2:16-17 -- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

 

Amen, brother!

Tim

 

I'll try:

1. In the context of Gal 5:19, "uncleaness" has to do with sexual sins. The context is the most important determiner of a word's meaning.

2. Yes, they did keep the Jewish sabbath, etc. They lived in a Jewish culture. They were brought up Jewish. Yet Paul clearly recognized that these things were no longer necessary (Gal. 4:9-11, Col. 2:16-17). As the church became "full of gentiles" these Jewish Laws were not required of them (Acts 15).

3. No, Jesus was not referring to something yet in our future. He was referring to the believers flight from Jerusalem when the Roman armies came (compare Luke 21:20-24). Even many Christian Jews would still have reservations about escaping on the Sabbath at that time. Such hesitation and debate could be deadly.

4. The OT Law contains many valuable principles. But if we MUST keep ANY of it we MUST keep ALL of it (James 2:10). So, must I keep the sacrificial Law?

In Christ,

Tim

 

Dear Caissie,

Others have answered but here are my answers:

KJV Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

It has more than one nuance:

Strong’s 169 uncleanness physical and moral: in a moral sense: the impurity of lustful, luxurious, profligate living.

Physical: In Acts 11 Peter has a vision:

Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

To which the Lord replies:

But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Since the Lord has cleansed all animals as food then the Galatians 5 passage must be moral uncleanness. Also the word appears in context among other morally nuanced words in the Galatians 5 passage.

For instance if one watches “X” (and many “R”) rated movies on TV one will in all probability defile the mind by gazing upon the uncleanness of unsanctified sex (sanctified sex being that which goes occurs between a married couple (one male, one female).

Paul went to the Jews in the synagogue on the Sabbath. It does not say that he “kept” the Sabbath but reasoned with them in the synagogue that Christ is the Messiah.
He ALMOST made a sacrifice in Acts 21 but did not.

Please provide chapter and verse where any of the apostles “Kept” the Sabbath or offered an animal sacrifice.

NO, Jesus is speaking to Jews, many of whom would be alive in 70AD when Titus would destroy the Temple (“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh”) and kill the levitical priests, the scribes, the Pharisees and the Saducees and almost the entire population of Jerusalem.

Of course its good advice it comes from God!

So also the dietary laws given to Israel but we are not under the law. Keep whatever of the law you want, even the sabbath, but it has NOT to do with either your justification or your sanctification.

You are led of the Spirit and as such you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

When you leave the leading of the Spirit then you are asking for (no, you will get) TROUBLE.

For now if you are a believing Jew or have a fixation on the law because of conscience sake, do as the Spirit leads until you are stonger in the faith. BTW, I don't of anyone who claims that the Spirit led them to make an animal sacrifice.

Above all don't judge others for their exercise of the royal law of liberty. If they are not being led of the Spirit, God will take care of it.

HankD

 

It seems that 5 pages ago this thread began by somebody arguing that the Law is still valid because of Matthew 5:17-19.
Since Jesus' examples quoted portionos of the Ten Commandments, the Statutes, and the Judgments, we must conclude that he meant the WHOLE law.

I ask Helen and Cassie, in light of Matthew 5:17-19 which Christian church on eaRth still observes the WHOLE LAW? Does yours? Is it a Baptists church? I must know more about a Baptist church which had animal sacrifices, practices an eye for an eye, and follows all the health Laws of the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law). In my opinion, you disprove your own argument when you deny doing ALL of this. What do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 5:18,19?????

Matt 5:18-19
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until ALLl is accomplished.
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the LEAST of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. NASU

 

Russ, there is no possibility that any real Christian church would try to 'obey the law' the way you have stated. That is because Christians are no longer judged by the law, but have been raised to the higher standard set by Christ. This, however, does not negate the law in the slightest. Those who refuse Christ and prefer the law will be responsible for every tiny little bit of it.

 

Ok, that sounds like a decent answer.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

I guess that can be debateable too.


3. It still looks to me that Mat 24:3-24 can be talking nothing but the end times.
Remember "Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. "

Jerusalm was detroyed and then rebuilt. Let us study that verse "line upon line":


Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


Mat 24:
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

(*it has just been in the last hundred years that the earthquakes have been very common and much larger.)


8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

(Far more christians died for their faith in the 19th Century than from 33 AD to 1900. http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/GLIMPSEF/Glimpses/glmps105.shtml )


10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

(Was the gospel preached to all the world before 70AD?)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(*Do you believe that there is coming a great tribulation, or do you believe it already came, and passed.)

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:

(What can that possibly mean if that had already happened?)

but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Also, Luke states:
21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

*You can go visit where the temple use to be. You will find there are still many stones left "left one stone upon another". Now, either Jesus lied, or that is talking about something still in the future. (maybe they will clear the land so they can rebuild the temple?)

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

And then Jesus tells them when those things shall come to pass.

Mark 13
1 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another , that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Jesus has to be talking about the great tribulation because he said in the next verse:

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


4. I agree that we are guilty of breaking the Law. Thank God for Christ. But that verse Tim referred to(James 2:10) does not tell us to disregard the law. It is telling us that if we break one point in the law, we are worthy of death. I agree. Again, thank God for Christ.


Referring to "Must you keep the sacrificial law?"
To be saved…No. The law doesn’t save anyone.
You can’t even if you wanted to anyway. That was a job for the Levite priest. No one is allowed to do any of their jobs but them. (Plus the temple was destroyed around 70AD).
If you could, would that make you any more righteous or give you any more rewards? I am not The Judge. But it looks to me like the answer is no (by reading Luke 17:7-10)

Luke 17:
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

One more thing:

I hope that I haven't sounded like I was judging anyone. My purpose for even getting in this conversation is not to get someone to change thier belief. I am asking questions because I want answers. Not so I can corner people.
What is the purpose of getting in one of these chat rooms things? To cram stuff down others throat, or to learn something. Has this conversation helped you in finding new verses? or looking at something in a different light? or at least challenged you to pick up your bible more?

Sorry for the long reply,
I am enjoying our discussion so far. I will let you comment, then give more questions.

[ March 24, 2004, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Caissie ]

 

It is, end of the Jewish age. The last days were in the 1st century. Heb 1:1-2

Look up the Greek on world. Its age not world.

New Testament is full of these examples.

Who is the you? He is speaking to His 1st century Disciples, not 21st century Israelies.

Yep,

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (oikumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
FULFILLMENT
Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. (oikumene)

Prophecy
Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations. (ethnos)
FULFILLMENT
Romans 16:25-26 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations (ethnos) for the obedience of faith:

Prophecy
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, (kosmos) and preach the gospel to every creature.
FULFILLMENT
Colossians 1:5-6 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world (kosmos); and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Prophecy
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (ktisis)
FULFILLMENT
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature (ktisis) which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Prophecy
Acts 1:8 "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. (ge)"
FULFILLMENT
Romans 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth (ge), And their words to the ends of the world."

See Luke's account.

Notice vs. 17. The top of houses were used as rooms in the 1st century, not so today.
This is exactly what happened when the Roman armies for some unknown reason retreated. All the Christians fled Jerusalem because they headed the words of Jesus's warning.

Passed.

Perhaps God intervened before the Roman armies killed every Christian Jew in the Roman Empire.

History and scripture record these events.

This needs its own thread.

 

Helen
It sounds like you are saying that Christians will be judged according to Christ's new law of love and non-believers will be judged by the entire Mosaic Law. Please clarify.

John 16:8-9
8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; NASU

I think that John 16:8,9 makes it clear that Jesus Christ is now the perfect standard of judgment that has replaced the Law.

 

If by 'the entire Mosaic Law' you are including the laws given to the theocracy of Israel, no. However God's law for all people are summed up in the Ten Commandments and, if you want anything added, the law concerning capital punishment for murder given to Noah, then yes, unbelievers will be judged according to the law. They are demanding justice and, poor souls, that is what they will get.

In fact, there will be some degree of judgment by law for everyone, for look at what Jesus says in that same section of Matthew 5:

Right after Jesus talks about the law not being changed in the slightest until all things are accomplished (v.18), we read this

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments AND TEACHES OTHERS TO DO THE SAME will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Our salvation will not be judged according to the law, but according to belief in Christ. I don't think anyone here is arguing about that, are they?

But look at the above. Knowing all of us break a commandment, at least occasionally ( ), the key would seem to be the part I capitalized -- teaching others to do the same.

These people are not denied salvation. The fact that they will be in heaven indicates they are saved, right? But they have been judged apart from their salvation -- presumably the same judgment mentioned at the end of Psalm 1 and many other places. And the basis for this judgment seems to have something to do with the law, at least for some.

On the other side, a man is lost eternally for refusing Christ. However, there are indications that there are different degrees of punishment (Dante had his own ideas about this in his "Inferno."). I spent a little time in the last hour trying to remember where the passage I was thinking of was. I couldn't find it. I did remember Luke 12 where the servants receive different degrees of punishment depending on how much they knew of their master's will and how they acted. Maybe someone else can help out here -- which passage is it which 'inspired' Dante to write his "Inferno"?

At any rate, we are not judged by the law in terms of salvation or damnation. That judgment has to do with one's response to God. But after that there are a good many indications that the law is still going to be one of the bases for judgment, perhaps of believers as well as of unbelievers.

I appreciate being challenged on this, because I have never really been pressured into doing this kind of Bible study on the law before. Thanks to all of you.

 

Throughout the entire Bible, the law is treated as one whole unit. No divisions are present - only is present in the minds of some men (and women). Jesus fulfilled the law (the whole complete unit) and that old covenant based on the law has been replaced by the new one instituted by Christ himself.

 

It's rather simple. The Ten Commandments can be kept by individuals, apart from societal or cultural customs or political laws.

The laws given to the ancient Israelites for their theocracy cannot be. They require a political system built around them.

Therefore the theocratic laws are for the theocracy. The Ten Commandments are for all individuals.

 

Caissie, I will defer to grasshopper's response.

Here is a website which might be of interest to you.

http://www.livius.org/jajn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html

HankD

 

Oops try this URL

http://www.livius.org/ja-jn/jewish_wars/jwar04.html

HankD

 

You are making divisions where the Bible does not. It treats the law as one complete whole unit. No divisions - you keep all of the law perfectly or you are guilty of breaking all of it.

 

Thanks for the website. And thank you (Grasshopper and HankD) for giving me detailed biblical answers.

That is the truth. I ask a question, get an answer, and at least 2 more questions come to mind because of that answer.

 

Here is another question:

When Jesus was having the Passover supper with his diciples, he said, "do this in remembrance of Me." Wouldn't that mean, "Do that in remembrance of Him?" Luke 22:13-19

If you have studied the Passover, you will see that it was all about forcasting Christ's death on the cross. Here is a short article I think that you might like on that. http://www.biblestuff.freerovin.com/photo.html

It makes since that Jesus would then ask us to keep the same feast (that was forcasting His sacrifice) for a remembrance of His sacrifice.


Also, Paul seconds that:
1 Cor 5:7-8
"Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Therefore let us keep the feast"

Isn't Paul refering to the feast of Unleveaned Bread?

 

Here is another (very short) article that goes with the message above. http://www.biblestuff.freerovin.com/photo2.html


(Tell me what you think about those 2 articles too. Thanks.)

 

Caissie,

Don't forget to keep reading farther into 1 Cor.5:8. There Paul makes it clear that he is talking in spiritual terms, not physical, and thus completes the thought begun in verse 6.

In essence he is saying that we keep Passover feast through Christ's acrifice for us, which cleanses us from sins (i.e. malice and wickedness), practicing sincerity and truth instead.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover feast, as He is the fulfillment of all the Law.Those who want to take us back to the OT shadows (feasts, etc.) are not embracing the "Head" as Paul teaches in Col. 2:16-3:2. We are not to focus on the physical observances, but rather set our affection upon the heavenly realities which the Law pointed toward.

In Christ,

Tim