When should a pastor be removed?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by pk4life, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. pk4life

    pk4life
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    Apart from sexual sins, that is.

    At what point does lying, back biting, gossip and failure to implement proper church discipline start equaling removal from office?

    And, should the responsibility to instigate this removal ever fall on the pastor's kids? Or should the kids just move on to another church and let the church they grew up in handle it?

    Is there any right answer?
     
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Is any sin greater or lesser than others when it is committed in the pulpit? To me, there is no line of demarcation for sin in the pastorate. Any sin -- unconfessed, hidden and continuing -- should result in his dismissal.
     
  3. agedman

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    EVERY believer in the assembly is responsible for the other believers.

    Bury the head in the sand by those who held they should not violate "don't touch God's anointed" have cause enormous damage to the name of Christ and the Church.

    I only have to give one living example - the unrepentant Dave Hyles.

    If you don't know - "google" and be dismayed at the lies and coverup that continue to this day!

    Frankly, I doesn't matter if the person is in a position of authorty or not; if know first hand that clear violations of the office are held and done, then it is Scriptural to not only confront them FIRST privately, if they do not confess and reform, confront them in the presence of witnesses, and if there is no confession and reformation then confront them before the whole assembly.

    NO Person is "God's anointed" in this age, but ALL believers are priests before God.
     
  4. agedman

    agedman
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    I STRONGLY disagree!!!!

    There are certain qualifications for the elder/pastor.

    IF and ONLY if one of those qualifications is violated is dismissal warranted.

    But just "any sin" doesn't qualify.


    The op mentions certain areas that WOULD disqualify the elder from service.
    No pastor can live sinless!!!!
     
  5. 12strings

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    1. A pastor who continues in unrepentance of any sin would seem to disqualify one based on the qualities listed in Timothy and Titus...Not that a pastor must be perfect, but he must set an example of repentance and seeking to grow. The following would be cases in which a pastor may not need to be removed:
    -A pastor who occasionally speaks angrily, but then apologizes and seeks to make right.
    -A pastor, in the heat of the moment distorts the truth a bit, but very quickly is convicted and comes clean and apologizes.
    -A pastor who shares a story with someone who has no business hearing it, but then realizes his mistake and endeavors to guard privacy better in the future.
    HOWEVER, any pastor for whom lying is a repeated, unrepentant pattern has surely disqualified himself biblically...whether a church recognizes that and removes him depends on the maturity of the church.
    ALSO...As to Church discipline...a pastor coming into a new church may have to work and teach and wait for a while before the church will allow him to implement church discipline, since in most churches it is the congregation that enacts such things.

    2. As to who should initiate a removal, it could really come from any church member, given 2-3 credible witnesses will back up a charge against the elder. Who implements such removal will depend on church polity...some churches it will be a congregational vote...others are elder-led and a pastor can be removed by the elders.

    3. Children of a pastor who is repeatedly dishonest should first speak to their father about it, then perhaps approach church leadership about it...depending on the age and maturity of the children. This would most likely only be done by adult children. If the church refuses to act on it, some children may decide its best to leave the church...others may decide to stay...there could be good reasons for either decision.
     
  6. 12strings

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    True, but I would say that almost any sin, if continued in defiant unrepentance, should reveal that a pastor is unfit to lead...for example, if a pastor stood up on sunday and said..."Some of you don't think I should be gossiping about you, but you know what, Nobody's perfect. I'm not commiting adultery or killing anyone, so you just need to learn to live with my gossip. God forgives every sin, so I'm just going to keep gossiping about some of you and making fun of you behind your back, and it's not a big sin, so live with it!"
     
  7. pk4life

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    Take one scenario a little further.

    Pastor does not approve of interracial marriage. Daughter falls for a guy of another race, and after months of internal fighting at home, daughter leaves the house.

    This action complicates things, and turns the issue into a "he said she said" gossip fest within the pastors church. Pastor's claim, is that this is nothing to do with race. This is to do with his adult (mid 20's) daughter disobeying him. And proceeds to preach that his daughter should be under his care, until she is married.

    Daughter offers herself up for church discipline, pastor refuses proclaiming it a "family matter", that is not subject to church discipline.
     
  8. Crabtownboy

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    The church member who is without sin can cast the first stone in the process of removing a pastor.
     
  9. preacher4truth

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    Those ready to throw out the pastor need to take a good survey of Matthew 18 and the forgiven slave and how he reacted to others who 'owed' him. Then go back to Matthew 5-7 and see what it means to live as kingdom people in this world.

    I'm sure there will be 'more' brought up to justify wanting to oust him.

    Preachers sin and make mistakes as well. Forgive them. Have compassion on them.

    Would to God a church would surround together for once in prayer, mercy and forgiveness, understanding, reconciliation and restoration concerning their pastor especially in a hard trying time. Instead they look for reasons to lynch him.
     
  10. 12strings

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    So since all are sinful, you are saying there NEVER any reason a church should remove a pastor?
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    I'd like to see your biblical support for that view. Certainly the pastoral letters from Paul, though you cite them, contradict it.

    1 Timothy 3, NASB
    2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
    3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
    4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
    5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
    6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
    7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. [emphasis added]

    Certainly everything the pastor does is under a microscope. Someone somewhere sees him and how he acts. If he has sin in his life that, as I originally said, is unconfessed, hidden and continuing, then he must be called to account. Perhaps dismissal is not necessary, but certainly steps must be taken to bring him back into fellowship.
     
  12. Crabtownboy

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    Anyone who is a Christian should do all the things you quotes from scripture. There is no hierarchy in this regard.

    Remember to do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    Blessings.
     
  13. Crabtownboy

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    Christ's words are pretty plain. I have heard of pastors being removed much more often than members ... and yet I know member of churches who were ... well, let's say not very good people an no one suggested they be removed.

    Do we take the words of Christ seriously or not?
     
  14. pk4life

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    Go ahead, quote Matthew 18 for us would you?

    You're leaving out the consequence part of Matthew 18...
     
  15. preacher4truth

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    Go for it. Quote the 'consequence part'.
     
  16. Aaron

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    This kinda took me by surprise, but then I realized the OP could be describing Obama.
     
  17. Aaron

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    You should understand that the Gospel is not what motivates CBT. Everything he says here has but one design: justify Obama.
     
  18. Crabtownboy

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    Are you saying that Jesus did not mean what he said?
     
  19. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Of course. But these commands go doubly for a man who accepts the mantle of authority in the church. Look at what happened when Ted Haggard fell. New Life dwindled to a quarter of its previous membership in less than a year. Why? Because the fabric of the believing community is only as strong as its weakest link, and if one member, no matter how new or immature, becomes discouraged, the rest will follow.

    Sure that's a highly visible church in a highly visible Christian community. But do you think it is different if the pastor of the small town church is known to have a closet drinking problem, or enjoys telling a few whoppers with the boys over coffee?

    How is the town going to look at the church that tolerates that? How are the members going to feel if it is not addressed? Paul didn't address those issues with Timothy and Titus for general consumption. It was a personal warning, mentor to students.
     
    #19 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jun 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2013
  20. Aaron

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    Not at all. I'm saying Jesus did not mean you think he said.

    You profane His Name and pervert His law with every post.
     

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