I'm seeing the discussions. Christians for this person for this reason and others for that person for that, and many saying they'll not vote for so and so cause that person has no chance. George W Bush is our president: He is the man who as far as the world is concerned....... and many in our country believe THE CHRISTIAN MAJORITY supported into and during his presidency. The problem is we as Christians are ambassadors for the Lord Jesus Christ, and HIS message is being obscured by the appearance that CHRISTIANS have endorsed not only a man into the presidency, but also all actions which have taken place since. The Bible teaches one has a duty to protect their family. A country has a right to protect itself against its enemies. But it does not endorse an unjust war if that is what has happened. It was Saudis that flew the planes..... but those terrorist who flew the planes did not represent the Saudi government. One may argue that other countries supported by allowing or ignoring the training of terrorist on their soil. If we look in the mirror, what could others say about us in the maintenance of troops and bases in other countries? What about us, what are we doing when we have international forces enter and lodge on our bases and train with our soldiers to support an international force? And what will we do if such make up a force to come against us if we find ourselves in a position where we cannot conform to law? Shall we allow our freedoms to be stripped from us, as they are already being stripped over the last decade or so? How then can we cover our neighbor when we ourselves are laid bare? What happened at 911 to change us, and cause us to move towards acceptance of what is taking place? If 911 was any lesson, the first thing is that our borders should have been closed: Instead the guards were not increased and the those who guard our borders are subject to prosecution and jail to appease the complaint of a neighboring government. Whatever happened to the anthrax scare that came out about that same time? Now everone is being 'frightened' by reports of bird flu or MRSA! MRSA is not new: It has been around for quite some time. About 15 years ago, as an technician in a rehab mental hospital, I help to take care of an elderly lady in a mixed population of diagnosed mentally ill individuals. It is serious and can cause death if it doesn't respond to treatment .......but it is not a 'new' disease. It was once primarily found in the hospital and health care but has migrated NOW to community status..... The news occassionally reported about this 'flesh eating' disease but I don't recall any response by our surgeon general or the CDC to educate the public or do extensive instruction of aseptic technique refreshers to the health care delivery persons in the medical field. I'm acquainted with aseptic technique as result of dental hygiene training and some clinical nursing training which I took later...... But I've seen routine breechs made in the health care environment without any appearance of consciouness that it has occurred. Torture is not Biblical. It is not ethical. Yet who is running for office and taking a serious stand against it? When our government does this and CHRISTIANS don't speak out, the rest of the world sees it as 'those Americans' and within that 'those Christians' who are allowing this. Our forefathers founded this country on the belief that all men are created equal before God and that our rights come from our Creator. Government use to support the advocacy of religious expression. Now, for people to organize and support a church or religious organization, it has to be registered, chartered, or some other such legal mess to qualify for tax privileges by its membership and its leaders........... then the government has the right to muzzel the mouths of our shepherds from speaking out 'politically' as related to their conscience regarding the scriptures and the leading from the Lord. And we don't speak out. Okay, lets have a litmus test....... pro life...... but we have 'Christian' leaders endorsing and putting the influence of folks too busy or too ignorant to do ought but trust in their choice, endorsing those who are for abortion. The Bible does teach that we are not to oppress the stranger in our midst. But it doesn't teach that we are to support that stranger above our ability to take care of our own. So we have candidates endorsing those who would advocate the vote (which is the privilege of citizenship) for those who are aliens. We have candidates who would endorse instate tuition privileges or scholarships for illegal aliens from the public coffers while we are taxed for this nor can we afford to provide for our own. Our government has defrauded our people, changing the weights (which the Bible speaks of being an abomination), promising those on pensions that they will receive cola increases then changing the ways those cost of living expenses are determined to keep it in the government's favor. Dare I mention debt, money minting, and interest........ and the control over our government by the bankers and international debt. What capital have we offered. I saw on one internet site that our nation has ownership of 70% of our lands as 'federal lands'. Is this the capital behind our debt? Or could it also be our freedoms? Even the Bible teaches the debtor is slave to the lender. Doesn't the scripture teach that we are to be content with what we have.......particularly so and with gratitude when we have what we need? Doesn't the Bible speak about counting the cost BEFORE going to war? We as citizens, must realize that WE are supposed to be the government, our leadership is supposed to serve us according to our Constitution. This is Biblical as well that we teach this...... those who rule over us are 'our servants'. Whatever happened to this litmus test? That our leaders promote our rights to make our laws...... not big business, not finacial institutions, not the pharmeceutical companies, not the trilateral commissions, not the council of foreign affairs, not the UN, etc.? Why do we promote and keep legislators who do not take the time to read the laws they pass..... and make them so complex it takes lawyers to decifer our own obligations while we are judged if we fail in error to regulation? I think we do have a choice in the primaries. Ron Paul is running for return to a Constitutional government. Allen Keyes is running for return to Constitutional government as represented upon Biblical principals. Can a preacher run for office? Yes, I see no problem with that...... but as far as I am concerned he is either a preacher or he is a politician....... I can't see a possibility for someone like Mike Huckabee to be loyal to both God and mammon. [edited later to add] without great difficulty] so I consider him on the bases that he will have to serve mammon, whether by choice or obligation of office and there fore will be compromise despite his best intention to serve God. We either serve one or the other, and in his candidacy I can show him no more favor because of his past credentials as a Baptist minister but must judge his candidacy as equal with other candidates; based on his political record and the words he speaks. One may say 'why elect someone who will not have enough persuasion in the houses of our legislature or other leaders in government to carry out our mandate? The last election was considered to be a mandate of the majority for change in direction of leadership....... which seems to have been abandoned so that there seems to be little difference. I'm a lay person. A small person regarding position of influence. Widowed, no children, living in farm country with relatives for distant neighbors. But I read my Bible and I am concerned that our people (the church) is suffering for lack of knowledge. I have felt persuasion by those who I listened to and who spoke pretty words (tickeled my ears) with hopes and promises of what they would do or what they had done or who they supported and considered that their advice as wisdom....... when I felt conflicted over choices. I appeal to all on this board, who are in positions of influence to weigh carefully the basis upon which political judgements are base and allegiance is cast towards any candidate. We are not electing a God but a human being from among our ranks who is subject to the fraileties and temptations as are each of us. We must pray for them and hold them in proper esteem...... but not worship, defend or take silence when we see them in error. As a Christian, there is only one God to whom I pray and I pray in the name of Jesus Christ. This is my right. It wasn't something the state could give me nor does the state have the right to take it away. I hope to see more boldness among Christian leadership..... and Baptist in particular. It may be nice to have a large church, drive a nice car, live in a big house, and be the most popular church in a neighborhood........ but if the price of these things is due to favor with man as opposed to favor with God then what price? p.s. as a teenager I was a 'Goldwater' girl........ we had a choice then though I will not say it was the right one. I hope others will read and add to or disagree with this thread, but carry on some serious discussions.