When to Baptize...

I could say the same thing about some of what you have written below, especially since, if I'm not mistaken, your husband is a pastor.

Where did I ever say that any of us are him? I didn't. I don't even know why you would try to implicate that.

But, he did set us an example with baptism, and that example is that he was baptized when he was prepared to enter into his public ministry.

Before I answer, let me ask you a question: By "lost" here, do you mean unsaved or perishing?

Well, the Bible doesn't uphold your use of the word. "Convert" is an English word that can be used the way that you are using it, but the Greek word from which it is translated cannot.

Matthew 13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

ἐπιστρέψωσιν: Turn again; ἐπί, to or toward, στρέφω, to turn. The BDAG has: to return to a point where one has been, turn around, go back Arndt, William ; Danker, Frederick W. ; Bauer, Walter: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. 3rd ed. Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 2000, S. 382

Oh, really?

Genesis 15:18: In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Sounds like a land that is promised to Abram's seed to me.

See above. The land from the Nile to the Euphrates was promised to the seed of Abram, contingent upon nothing but being born into the family.

The Land Flowing with Milk and Honey was promised, but it was based upon more than simply being born into the family.

And, if you bother looking at a map, the Arabs are part of those who were given the Promised Land, as the seed of Abraham, by the God of Abraham.

Oh, really?

Looked at the Children of Israel in the OT recently?

Looked at John 3:3 recently?

Well, let's quote John 3:3 and see if that's a true statement: "Except a man be born from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."

Either you're wrong, or the Scriptures are wrong, and I choose to believe the Scriptures. A person born from above is saved. Period.

Can you answer a question for me? Why does a person who is born into the family need to be adopted into the family? Do I need to go to the courhouse and adopt my child?

No. It's because you're not looking at the Scriptures. You are putting a modern American English spin on a word that cannot support what you are trying to force into it.

The word that is translated as "adoption" is a Greek word "huiothesia"; son placement. It has to do with position, not relation. It's approval. There is no legitimate way to twist this word around to mean "to place into a family in which one was not born."

Children are servants until they become sons. A servant can also be made a son. (In the Greek, there are several different words that are "male children", and they denote different levels of maturity and/or relationship. In English, my son was my son when my wife was pregnant, when he was born, now, and always will be. One of the beauties of the Koine Greek is that it is static, and very precise.)

Now, I have to admit that I always thought "adoption" was simply poor translation. But, it was good translation, but a word that has changed meaning over the years. In English, the word has changed meaning, and primarily in American English.

While preparing a sermon on this very subject, I looked it up to get an English definition, and lo and behold, the primary meaning in English is "the act of accepting with approval; favorable reception; "its adoption by society"; "the proposal found wide acceptance".

Approval. Just like the Greek "huiothesia" has to do with approval.

The word for "placing into a family" at the time of the translation of the KJV was "affiliation".

"Adoption" has come to primarily mean "placing into a family in which one was not born" in the US, and mostly during the last 70-80 years.

An English etymological dictionary is a really handy thing to have, BTW. But, don't go for the Oxford; it has more entries, but is not very thorough. You have to spring for one of the $200+ ones to get one with a thorough history all the way back to its origins.

But, even if this were not the case, there is no way to twist the Greek word "huiothesia" to try to make it "placment into a family in which one was not born".

What is the hope of a Christian? Are you hoping that you are saved?

If you're hoping that you're saved, then we have a problem.

But, we as Christians, have a hope of glory. It's his glory, yes, but we have a hope that we can have a share in it.

We can also be chastized.

Of course it doesn't.

Nowhere have I stated otherwise.

You're confusing a "should be" with a "will be".

And, what is the "good work" that was begun in Philippians 1:6?

The "Kingdom" is referring to the future and literal 1000 year reign.

What does it mean to be "in Christ"?

 

You are kidding, I assume, since they're all over this forum saying that it doesn't matter what we do, as we'll all be in the coming Kingdom.

I think it's easy to show OSAS from the Bible, and many, many churches teach this as a license to sin:

"It doesn't matter what you do, but you should do good because you love the Lord."

Well, I do love the Lord.

And, as far as my everlasting salvation goes, it doesn't matter how I behave.

But, it does matter how I behave. Saved people are given many warnings and exhortations about our behavior.

We're also given many promises about our behavior.

 

Was that really all your reference works said about epistrepho? Hard to believe they didn't include the simple form "turn" as well as "return." Maybe you overlooked it.

1 Thes 1:9, "you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God."

Or Acts 15:3, the "conversion of the Gentiles."

(If your concordance is broken, I can recommend a reliable bookbinder.)

Hope of Glory was incorrect to say "Convert" is an English word that can be used the way that you are using it, but the Greek word from which it is translated cannot.

Likewise Helen was incorrect to deny that the word "convert" can mean "to turn BACK to it."

 

I might be wrong about this, but I don't think "ἐπιστρέψω", the root word for ἐπιστρέψωσιν, is ever found in the NT in the 'active' sense, nor is "ἐπιστρέψωσιν" actually found in the NT at all, but I will await correction on this, if it is true.

Ed