When We Talk To God...Lets Be Honest

Discussion in 'Books / Publications Forum' started by Bob Alkire, Sep 13, 2002.

  1. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire
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    Has anyone read this book by Dr. Kirby Godsey,President of Mercer University? Where is he coming from?
    He said," Accepting Jesus is not the basis of salvation. Jesus came to say we are saved. We are forgiven. God's forgiveness lies within us. ... No conditions, no prerequisites, no plan to follow, grace is not a conditional affirmation. ...God receives us and accepts us as we are, no conditions, no plan of salvation to figure out, no doctrines to adopt." from pages 145,148.
    Again, he said,"The compelling confession of our faith is not that God will love us or forgive us if we will repent our sins. The truth of the Christian gospel is that God loves us and forgives us already, no conditions." Page 115

    How many agree with this man? There are many more but I just took 2 of his views from his book.
    I don't understand where this man is coming from!!!
    Bob
     
  2. David Cooke Jr

    David Cooke Jr
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    I own the book, and read it a few years ago. Some of it I agread with and some of it I did not. Basically, its just Dr. Godsey's thoughts on God. I know him and his family (his son is a missionary with BMDMI), and heard him speak on the book tour. At the time, Dr. Godsey summarized his views as "worship God, follow Jesus, and study the bible".
     
  3. Bob Alkire

    Bob Alkire
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    David, Thanks!!! As in most books I found somethings that I agreed with, but not a great deal with.
    I'll have to give Dr. Godsey credit, he has doubts about traditional theology,and he published his denial of many doctrines of the faith and he didn't try and hide his view. Even if I disagree (which I do) with him, he is stand up about his views.
     
  4. Pastork

    Pastork
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    Not having read the book and judging only by the quotations you have given, I would say the guy looks pretty dangerous!
     
  5. rhoneycutt

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    Then you would be mistaken. I have read his book and know him personally. He is not dangerous. No doubt I could take two quotes from Pauls writings, toss them out here out of context, and you having not read the source would think he looked dangerous.

    On the other hand if you read Pauls writings and take them seriously it is pretty dangerous.

    Russell
     
  6. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer
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    Don't meant to nitpick, but the title of the book is actually, "When We Talk About God... Let's Be Honest".

    I went out and purchased the book a few years ago because of the attacks on it and the "quotes" taken from the book by the Southern Baptists of Texas and SBC leaders. After a casual check of some of the more disturbing quotes I discovered that they had very dishonestly taken many things he said out of context. (See "Plumbline", Volume IV No.2 May 1997 "I'm OK, You're OK, God's OK - What, Me Worry?" by J. Walter Carpenter) While I agree with a fair amount of what he says, I also disagree with some of his emphases. I think he often takes an element of truth that has been neglected and sometimes emphasizes it at the expense of other biblical truth. I think the section you quoted is one of those areas...

    Godsey, if I understand him correctly, is emphasizing that God's grace alone saves. I think the key passage in that section to focus on is,

    While I agree that grace should be the defining characteristic of the Christian and I agree with his statements about "Christian religion" (religiousity). I think he diminishes the Incarnation to a degree by limiting Jesus to begin simply an expression of God's grace. I'm not sure if he actually means what he wrote, but based on what he wrote I would have to say that he seems to be forgetting that Jesus is the fullest revelation and expression of God. (Hebrews 1:1-3)
     
  7. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    I'll come from the opposite end of the spectrum. I HAVE read the book. It is heresy, plain and simple. It denies the uniqueness of Christ. This book IS dangerous.

    Rev. G
     
  8. Rev. Joshua

    Rev. Joshua
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    I've found it a very useful tool for helping people to understand contemporary discussions in the study of religion.

    Dr. Godsey is a committed Christian with a deep, personal faith. He's also honest about the tough questions that I think more conservative Christian writers tend to gloss over.

    Joshua
    (Who has a signed copy. [​IMG] )
     
  9. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    Rev. Joshua:

    Do you believe that it is possible to attain salvation in some way other than grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone?

    Rev. G
     
  10. Baptist Believer

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    Do you believe Godsey says that in the book? If so, what page?
     
  11. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    Baptist Believer:

    Please permit me to quote Mr. Godsey himself:

    "Christians seem to become remarkably troubled about whether Jesus is humankind's only savior. Is Jesus God's only word? The simple answer is, 'Of course not.".... For me as a Christian, Jesus is the defining revelation. This confession that lies at the center of my faith does not require an exclusivist position whereby I should feel compelled to deny every other person's claim to know God. I can only say that, for me, Jesus is the central event of history. I cannot speak for another."
    p. 133, cf. p. 119

    Let me add:

    "Jesus did not come to tell us how to be saved. Jesus came to tell us that we are saved." p. 144

    "Jesus came to say that we are saved. We are forgiven. God's forgiveness lies within us. We are loved. God's embracing love lies buried within us underneath a load of guilt and fear. No conditions, no prerequisites, no plans to follow -- grace is not a conditional affirmation." p. 145

    "God's word of grace is that we are all free. The announcement comes. Jesus himself is the announcement. Everyone who has lived in this awful state of being trapped has been set free." p. 155

    "Universalism has a very high view of God. God's grace and God's love are the ultimate realities revealed in Jesus." p. 202

    As a Christian, I deny universalism. Christ alone is humanity's only hope. Justification comes through faith alone in Christ alone - it comes only to those who trust only Christ for salvation.

    Godsey ceases at this point to be both a Baptist and a Christian.

    Rev. G
     
  12. Bob Alkire

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    Russell, I didn't believe that I had taken Dr. Godsey's statements out of context, I just chose 2 short one to show what he was saying, that I didn't agree with and didn't understand it from the doctrines that I know.
    Bob
     
  13. rhoneycutt

    rhoneycutt
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    Rev G
    You seem to insinuate that Godsey has a "weak Christology". I disagree. Here is a man who is attempting to speak about God honestly. Please try to keep what he says in context.
    P.117 "Jesus is not a God to be worshipped or the founder of a world religion to be admired." Godsey is opposing opposite kinds of confusion about the relation of the Father and the Son. (Who did Jesus tell his disciples to pray to the Father in the name of?)
    P.127 "Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus is not God" Godsey was arguing Jesus is unique as the Word from which Words such as the Bible derive.
    Kirby is not denying the divinity of Christ. He repeatedly affirms it:
    P. 52 "In Jesus, the Word of God takes on historic personality, God comes and lives among us"
    P. 72 "We meet God in Jesus"
    P. 118 "Jesus is not legend. Jesus is God with us"
    P. 119 "For the Christian faith, Jesus has defining and ultimate signifigance. In Jesus we see what God is like"
    P. 125 "Jesus is Lord...In Jesus we see the light"
    P. 129 "In Jesus, God comes to us in flesh and blood...God embodied in Jesus"
    P. 131 "The idea is not that God appears as a person. God became a person and lived with us"
    P. 135 "For me, Jesus is the only name that stands at the center of my faith. My response is to confess my faith"
    P. 137 "Jesus completes and enlightens the awareness of God that has come through all other religious perspectives"

    Quite the contrary Rev G. Far from a "weak Christology". Its funny, when the GBC was trying to fire Dr. Godsey and attempted to use this book, their arguments if I recall were that Godsey said the Bible doesn't command us to proclaim the gospel or observe the Lords Supper and Baptism. They dropped the "Jesus is not God" and the universalism charges fairly quickly when confronted with the facts. Or maybe they read the book finally. :rolleyes: I seem to recall even Russell Dilday mouthing off and then having to admit he had not even read the book. I will go back and check.
     
  14. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    Mr. Honeycutt:

    I quoted passages that dealt primarily with salvation, and Christ as the one and only Savior (exclusivist position). You refuted NONE of those. Of which "facts" do you speak in regard to his universalism?

    The passages you point out really do not make a difference with what I quoted dealing with the uniqueness of Christ. For Mr. Godsey Jesus is quite "personal" in a very "relative" sort of way. He is not universally unique, just personally so.

    I do not claim that the Christology is weak, I claim that it is heretical.

    Rev. G

    [ September 19, 2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
     
  15. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    Will there be any response? Just wondering.

    Rev. G
     

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