Featured When were the saved regenerated by God?

Did God died for all the ungodly? Does God justify all the ungodly via faith? Do all men w/o exception have faith. The answer is a resounding "no"...

"Every", "all", "whosoever", is in regards to distinction(sp?), and not exception....

 

I don't care one tittle whether you think Christ died for only one person. Did Christ die for the godly or ungodly?

I don't care if you think you're the only person ever justified in all of history. Were you justified while you were godly or ungodly?

 

Christ died for the ungodly, yes. But there's more to it than that...but I digress....

We are justified by faith...a gift of God...when we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....He justifies us...

 

We can certainly offer our explanation of what a verse or passage teaches, but we cannot bend what the Bible says. When Paul writes:

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

we cannot first take an interpretive step before exegeting the passage. The passage makes a plain, normative statement and we are too obvious with our presuppositions when we rush into interpretation.

Now, we certainly can interpret the passage according to our own systematic theology (and all of us do that), but we cannot change the words.

 

Define "Godly and Ungodly"

 

In Christ...not in Christ....

 

Amen.....:thumbsup:

 

So a pious Jew isn't Godly?

 

I'm just posing questions to ya Willis the way they would in " Godless NJ " .... something to chew on since Reformed abandoned his homeland...ha ha ha ahhhhhh, good ta laugh.:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

I was born, raised, and ruined in the Garden State. Actually I have fond memories of growing up in Hudson and Bergen counties. I travel back often. Have to get my fix of fish n' chips in Kearny. I heard Action Park has reopened.

I may not live in Jersey anymore, but if you cut me I bleed toxic waste. It helps provide me immunity for anything below the Mason-Dixon line.

 

Action Park is reopened.....but Kearny has come way down unfortunately........best you just stay put where you are at....much safer. They did put a Trader Joe's in:thumbs: Clifton....right next to the ole Hoffman La Roche (now abandoned)....but Calandres is still here:thumbs:

 

Kearny. Not Kearney. Please get you Civil War generals last names correct.

 

The tablet spell checker did that...blame technology.:laugh:

 

Of course there's more to it. Consider the scriptures quoted by Yeshua1 to support regeneration. Ezekiel wrote...new heart, new spirit, washed and sprinkled. Reformers say this amounts to a godly disposition before justification.

So how do you suppose God is justifying an ungodly man, if he has already been washed clean and given a godly disposition?

Or do you believe that God washes and regenerates a man, yet the man is still ungodly? What of this supposed "new creation" is new, if he's still the same old guy?

 

But he's not the "same old guy". I assume you are familiar with the term "ordo salutis" (order of salvation)? Unlike some Calvinists I don't believe that a person can be regenerate for an indefinite period of time prior to being justified. FWIW that strain of Calvinism is found mostly among certain Presbyterians, not Baptists.

Because I believe the Bible teaches that the sinner is completely fallen in his sinful nature prior to salvation (Rom. 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1), it is impossible for him to exercise saving faith unless he is disposed to do so. Something must take place from outside of him in order for him to act according to this disposition. That something is regeneration; sometimes called illumination or enlightenment. This is when God changes the former sinner's heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh (Ezk. 36:26). This results almost instantaneously in saving faith, and then justification. I do not believe these things are accomplished haphazardly or as some sort of a soteriological jambalaya. The ordo salutis is consistent with God being a God of order (1 Cor. 14:40).

Of course, in order for the view I espouse to be correct, it depends on the validity of the doctrine of total depravity; that man is completely fallen in his sinful nature (see the preceding paragraph). Obviously I believe that to be the case. It would be inconsistent for a Calvinist to believe in total depravity and believe that regeneration does not precede justification, even if (for practical purposes) both happen nearly instantaneously.

 

:thumbsup:AMEN!:thumbsup:

Loved this line too, lol...
"I do not believe these things are accomplished haphazardly or as some sort of a soteriological jambalaya."

 

Oooooookkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyy.......lemme see if I can explain my beliefs in a succinct manner...

Man, prior to any action taken by God on him, is fallen. All his faculties have him being unable to respond positively to the gospel. People say we can reject the call. Correct. That's what we naturely do, being a fallen creature/creation. God has to first move upon him, has to do a work via the Spirit, that opens...illuminates...the eyes....unplugs their deafened ears, has to till the heart...or as in Ezekiel it states that He will give them a new heart and a new Spirit. Until God "sensitizes" his inner man, he has zero desire to serve God. But when God does His effectual work, He causes him to see himself as he never did before. He realizes he's lost, in need of a Saviour, and w/o Him doing this, he'll die eternally lost. Only God can give this man illuminated knowledge.

Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26, 1 Cor. 2:14, Romans 9:16, 1 Thess. 2:13, Phpp. 2:13, Eph. 3:7, Heb. 13:20,21.....

 

Very familiar. The thing is, though I typically quote from the Westminster Confession, other confessions use the same language

Westminster on Effectual Calling:
1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.



Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) on Effectual Calling:
1. Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace.


2. This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not on account of anything at all foreseen in man. It is not made because of any power or agency in the creature who is wholly passive in the matter. Man is dead in sins and trespasses until quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit. By this he is enabled to answer the call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed by it. This enabling power is no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.


New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833) on Grace in Regeneration:
We believe that, in order to be saved, sinners must be regenerated, or born again; that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind; that it is effected in a manner above our comprehension by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the gospel; and that its proper evidence appears in the holy fruits of repentance, and faith, and newness of life.



All these Reformed Confessions say that regeneration is a change of disposition, or will, whereby one is enabled to choose Christ.

One objector claimed that I misrepresented the Reformed position, because I stated that both Calvinists and Arminians say that believing the gospel is an act of the will. One says it is an act of an unregenerate man, while the other says that God changes a man's disposition so that He chooses Christ from a godly heart.

But the bottom line is that both camps agree that believing the gospel is an act of the will.

And all of these confessions have very similar verbiage, that regeneration is a change of disposition - that man is given a godly[/u] disposition.

And all of these Confessions cite 2Cor 5:17 and Ezek 36:26 in support of their view. So let's piece this together.

A man is "recreated" through a giving of a godly disposition (enabling him to do good and choose Christ). How do you figure that God is justifying the Ungodly, if he's already been made godly before he's justified?

Moreover, if he's still ungodly after this recreation, how is he not the same old guy? He's been washed, yet he's still dirty? Given a new heart, yet still ungodly? What's supposedly the "all things" which are new ???

 

So, now answer if there is a gap from regeneration------>conversion, I have not the foggiest notion. Part of me believes there can be, and part of me believes like Brother Reformed and Sister 5 Solas does.


With me, in May, 2006, while driving home from work, I was listening to a FWB preacher on the radio. He was preaching from Daniel 2. I truly realized that hell was to be my home, if I died in that lost condition. I knew for years I would go to hell w/o being saved, but this time, it seemed ever more real. I then thought I'd have to make myself "savable" by quitting doing bad things...i.e...sinning. I found out that at the end of it all, I had done all I knew to do, but I was still as lost as a ball in the weeds. On May 24, 2007, while at work in a hospital lab, at ~1:30 am, He saved me. I was a spiritual wreck that night. I was burdened down, I was miserable, I didn't want to go on in that shape. I was ready to die. Then, all of a sudden, I felt something start at the top of my head, and felt it move all the way down, just like the Spirit washing me all over, showering, immersing me, in His love. I have never been the same since. I truly felt peace that very moment. I feels chills right now as I type this.


Yes, God is good.....:jesus::godisgood::jesus::godisgood:

 

Regeneration preceding conversion is against scripture. Take your pick:

1) A man is regenerated, yet still ungodly (unscriptural) when he is justified

2) A man is regenerated, and is godly when he becomes justified (unscriptural)