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When & Where did the true Church begin?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by michael-acts17:11, Jul 19, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was NOT in Old Covenant, so when He came on day of pentacost, He initiated the experience of one being baptized by Him into Body of Christ, and that is who makes up "Church" of God!
     
    #21 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
  2. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    There are dozens of verses in post #2.

    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Mat 3:11)
    And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. (Act 11:15-16)

    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) (John 7:38-39)

    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. (John 14:16-17)

    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: (John 16:7-8)
     
    #22 michael-acts17:11, Jul 19, 2011
  3. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    The lack of Biblical support is a direct reflection on the length of time spent studying the subject. I speak concerning my family's experiences within local churches; IFB, MB, & SBC. Any church whose new members cannot study the Word beyond the basic doctrines within five years is not fulfilling the commission to teach them. We are commanded to teach, not just to preach. This is a forum for debate, not for pleasing words & rhetoric.
     
    #23 michael-acts17:11, Jul 19, 2011
  4. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    This does not show that the church did not start before Pentecost.

    "as on us at the beginning"... now this might be a verse that would support the idea of the church not existing before the Pentecost but it could be understood as "at the beginning, when the Holy Ghost first fell on us".

    This does not show that the church did not start before Pentecost.

    This does not show that the church did not start before Pentecost.

    This does not show that the church did not start before Pentecost.

    This does not show that the church did not start before Pentecost. One might argue that the 'you' that Jesus is referring to was the same 'you' at Pentecost, ie. the church.

    Any other verses that teach/say that the church did not exist before Pentecost?
     
    #24 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2011
  5. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    These are flat statements right out of the Dispensationalist playbook. Did you reach these conclusions directly out of scripture, or did you get them from Dispy theologians?

    As you know by now, flat statements don't get very far without supporting scripture. Michael-Acts made his assertions in the OP, then followed up with extensive scripture citations.
     
    #25 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    The twelve tribes? That's a new one. Never heard that before. How'd you arrive at that?

    Where does the Bible say that?

    Right out of the dispy playbook again. Would you like to quote a scriptural basis for all this.
     
    #26 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Here's a question to ask: What did the church have on the day of Pentecost that it didn't already have before Pentecost.

    Some will answer, well, it didn't have the Holy Spirit and fire.

    But in fact, it did have the Holy Spirit, as we see in John 20:22.

    And while Jesus was on this earth, it had his supernatural power. Remember that they came back from a mission trip in awe "that even the demons are subject to us."

    Before Pentecost, the disciples had a commission--actually two, as I've posted before; the assembly had a Head; it had a treasurer; it baptized; it had the Lord's Supper; it had a business meeting; it had rules of behavior; it had preaching and teaching; and it had converts.

    So while I agree with you that the church began with the calling of the Twelve, I think the church was in full operation before Pentecost.
     
    #27 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    But it had. John 20:22. "Receive ye the Holy Spirit..." This was after the crucifixion and after the resurrection. And after he was glorified. Remember the Transfiguration?
     
    #28 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Jesus came to fulfill the Law. So when did this take place? That will tell you when the law of grace began, which is the church age.
     
    #29 Amy.G, Jul 19, 2011
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Then why did Jesus specifically say when he instituted the Lord Supper that the cup IS the New Covenant? Not WILL BE.

    You're just parroting the Dispy playbook again.
     
    #30 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Do you mean that FBC was already in Jerusalem at Pentecost? If that's what you mean, you're right.
     
    #31 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  12. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Nope , just the Holy Bible!

    Questions

    Apostle paul says that we were ALL Baptise by the Holy Spirit into Body of Christ, the Church...

    When in the Gospels did the HS come and do that spiritual work, to bond us supernaturally into the Church?

    When did He come and reveal by Tongues of Fire and fulfill OT prophecies?

    Could the HS even come in NT sense in Church while the Messiah was here, as Jesus said that better for us that He did go away, and would say another like Him to aid us?

    Did jesus or not say they would have Spirit abiding in them after he ascended, to tarry and wait for Him to come?
     
    #32 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
  13. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    The new covenant is written in the blood of Jesus, but He had not shed His blood until after the last supper. Therefore the new covenant could not have been in effect when Christ lifted up His cup at the last supper.
     
    #33 Amy.G, Jul 19, 2011
  14. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Actually, I cited a number of scriptural bases for my view. And I've had some pretty deep teaching on the subject.

    Can we junk the idea that any view that disagrees with yours is man-made?
     
    #34 Tom Butler, Jul 19, 2011
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Remember, folks were saved by the regenerating work of the holy Spirit in all ages. Always His work.

    The permanent indwelling of the holy Spirit is a gift Jesus gave to the church (church already meeting and existing) on Pentecost. They had been filled with the Spirit prior, but that was a come-and-go phenomena. At Pentecost it was permanent. Whoopee!!

    Jesus said "I am the good Pastor. The good Pastor gives His life for the sheep". Note: This was a year prior to the cross. The cross was future; His position as "Pastor" already filled.
     
    #35 Dr. Bob, Jul 19, 2011
  16. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    I guess my point was Petecost was the day they launched publicly, so to speak. Somewhat like a business will have its 'Grand Opening' a while after it is a fully functioning business. Also somewhat like a baby being born, whereas it existed in the womb prior to its public appearance.

    Whether the church started at Jesus calling the twelve or at Pentecost, what is necessarily lost or gained either way?
     
    #36 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2011
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    That would be it. :thumbsup:

    Of course Salvation is always by Grace. As Dr. Bob says, Jesus is always our Shepherd.
     
    #37 preacher4truth, Jul 19, 2011
  18. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, its still in the NT !

    What about those who see the Church being also in OT though?
     
    #38 JesusFan, Jul 19, 2011
  19. humblethinker

    humblethinker Active Member

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    I would not be one of them... but maybe this is better addressed in a new thread. :)
     
    #39 humblethinker, Jul 19, 2011
  20. michael-acts17:11

    michael-acts17:11 Member
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    Repeating the same statement over & over again does not constitute a well thought out belief. If you read the context of the "as on us at the beginning" passage, you will understand that it is referring to the falling of the Spirit in the upper room in Acts 2. You have made my point. At the beginning of what? The Church.
    Do you understand the difference between the Biblical New Testament(Covenant) & the book we call the New Testament? The church is in a covenant relationship with the Father through the finished sacrifice of Christ. Read through John & Hebrews & you will understand this truth. The church cannot exist without the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit. Instead of just denying what I have written, give a well thought out description of the church with numerous Scriptural references.

    And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Act 2:1-4)
     
    #40 michael-acts17:11, Jul 19, 2011
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