When/Why Will Babylon be Destroyed"?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by lastday, Nov 28, 2010.

  1. lastday

    lastday
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    0
    Friends,
    The thread on Babylon closed at the end of 10 pages of discussion.
    But over 300 times we had views during the final week of posting.

    Mystery Babylon, "Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of Earth",
    has had a seat on "many waters" since the time of Nimrod. Certainly
    since the time John wrote Revelation one of its "sitting positions" has
    been on 7 hills...on Rome in my view.

    Because Mystery Babylon still exists today...and waits to be unseated
    from the Beast (and its network confiscated by Ten Kings until the words
    of God are fulfilled)...why and at what climactic point in history will she
    experience history's greatest earthquake and begin to suffer the "smoke
    of her torment forever"?
    Rev.14:8; 17:16-17; 16:18-21; 18:21-24; 19:1-3.
    Mel Miller
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is very possible you are correct about Rome as it does sit on seven hills.

    However, the scriptures say seven mountains, and often mountains stand for kingdoms.

    Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    In the last several years I have began to wonder if Dubai in the U.A.R. could be Babylon. It fits in several ways, it is part of the old Babylonian empire, it sits on water (which Rome does not), and the U.A.R. is made of seven kingdoms.

    Years ago I read The Two Babylons that shows the Catholic Church is really just the mystery religion of ancient Babylon.

    Also, the incredible highrises in Dubai definitely remind one of the ancient tower of Babel. The Burj Khalifa is now the tallest building in the world, nearly tree times as tall as the Empire State Building.

    [​IMG]

    This city has been attracting businesses from all over the world. Amazingly, this area was desert just twenty years ago.

    So, just speculation, but I would keep my eyes on Dubai.
     
    #2 Winman, Nov 28, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 28, 2010
  3. lastday

    lastday
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lastday

    Winman,
    You wrote:
    God's Judgment on Mystery Babylon concerns a collective rebellion and global controlled conspiracy against His former People, the Jews, and against all who worship Christ. Rebellion was the cause of His Judgment at the Tower of Babylon. Rebellion led to the exile of Israel and then Judah. Finally, rebellion requires
    the removal of the "apostate system" which unites all religions, rulers and realms under its rule...all this even before the 1260-Day Endtime can begin!

    The "days of vengeance and wrath (and time of Jacob's trouble) continues until the times of the Gentiles are finished". Luke 21:22-24. So the Mystery
    of Babylon continues to see the "blood of the martyrs" being shed until the
    Mystery of God is finished. Rev.10:6-7. Endtime prophecies that precede the "fall of Babylon" can't be explained by the view that Mystery Babylon is still represented by Judaism!!

    Sufficient time must be allowed for global events to unfold that lead to peace in the Mideast among the world's religions and the global regulation of trade and commerce. This points to Rome, not Dubai, as the prophesied revival of Daniel's 4th Empire to be destroyed by Christ as His coming. But Babylon will be destroyed twice...first the City for uniting all religions against God's purpose in a collective "harlotry"; then for destroying a 3rd of mankind with intent to annihilate Israel and all who oppose "The System"!!!
    Mel
     
    #3 lastday, Nov 29, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2010
  4. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,138
    Likes Received:
    320
    No doubt Rome was/is/will be involved. But will also involve all false religion including Popish Catholicism, apostate Protestantism,Talmdic Judaism, Islam etc.

    In it's full manifestation Mystery Babylon may well have a geographic center, maybe Rome, maybe New York City, maybe even Jerusalem.

    In my view Mystery Babylon is the social philosophy which has been developing since the Nimrod/Semaramis Babylon Cult which desired to storm heaven and topple the Most High from His throne.

    But it is more than just "religion". It also involves economics, politics, social science, culture, customs, etc, etc...

    Today its full manifestation is yet to be realized.

    If I had to ID it, Secular Humanism would be its present day name (i.e. it's underlying venue and social philosphy).

    Mystery Babylon (also known as the Harlot) of Revelation IMO is a means to an end and is under the controll of the beast of Revelation 17.

    That end is his moment of glory.
    At the very end he will destroy the harlot take her throne (seat of power) and reveal himself to humanity as "the god of this world" and demand their worship or be killed.

    Isaiah 12:13-15
    "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High"​

    "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit".​

    HankD​
     
    #4 HankD, Nov 29, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2010
  5. lastday

    lastday
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lastday

    HankD,
    May we discuss the ideas expressed in your following remarks:
    The Harlot, seated on the Beast of world power, will exercise authority over the rulers of earth for a "short time" before Ten Kings destroy the City and then "give their power and authority to the Beast". I think this means the Harlot is NOT under the "beast's control" while she rules all nations, kings and tongues. Mideast Peace may be realized under Babylon prior to the 70th "7".

    In other words, the time of "peace" under her rule is totally separate from that of Antichrist's rule. More to the point of understanding is the realization that the "beast" is not a symbol of the Person of Antichrist being empowered by Satan until the middle of Daniel's 70th "7". It is then, and then only, that the beast is "personified" to represent "confiscation of the Harlot's throne".

    My point is that the 1260-day rule of the yet to be Satanic-empowered Antichrist follows the final peace "covenant" of Dan.9:27 because it occurs under her global rule. While he may agree to her rulership, he is not the basis nor reason for her power nor an active promoter in taking her position of world rulership. I believe this because his purpose is to destroy the Harlot and confiscate the global network System.

    My supposition is that world government will be brought about by the union of all religions coming together for "peace" and control of global trade and commerce. My premise is that "discovery of oil" in Israel will accelerate the
    efforts to establish peace and to remove the "fences" around Israel's cities. This peace precedes the invasion by Israel's enemies to "take the spoil" and to "bury the weapons for 7 years" as predicted by Ezekiel 38 to 39.
    Mel
     
  6. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,138
    Likes Received:
    320
    Greetings Mel

    lastday asks if we can discuss my remarks:

    He responds:
    Yes, of course , discussion is in order.

    I believe we are in general agreement. I am not a “detail” person as yourself and it is obvious you have studied these Scriptures in depth.

    In a summary of other words from the Scripture my view is: within the sovereignty of God and His temporal plan, He allows the devil to rule from behind the scenes presently but one day he (the devil) will reveal himself (and his entourage of men and angels) to the world, "unveil" his schema and demand the world's worship. Followed by his and their swift demise at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

    The evil one put Christ to the test with these words:

    Luke 4
    5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
    6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
    7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

    We all know the outcome.

    Then in 1 John 5:19 we see at very least the influence if not the control over the whole world by the devil:
    One day he will "take the reigns".

    NKJV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

    Also:

    NKJ 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
    6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
    7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
    8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
    9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
    10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
    12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    While God is in absolute sovereign control of His creation, the Scripture indicates that He has temporarily given control of this world (cosmos) over to the devil and his devotees for the purpose of fulfilling His word:

    NKJV Revelation 17
    15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
    16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
    17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
    18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

    As to the fine tuning of the details Mel, I pay attention to what you say and I am going to look closely at the Scriptures you have cited but honestly, sometimes I get lost in the sychronization of said details.

    HankD
     
    #6 HankD, Nov 30, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
  7. lastday

    lastday
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lastday

    HankD,

    Thanks for your comments. I am in full agreement with your viewpoints.

    I have read that early Church Fathers considered that Lawful Government was the "restrainer of lawlessness" and that the application of its righteous rule must be removed before the "Lawless One" can be revealed. I don't believe Paul meant the role or presence of the Church by itself prevents the "revelation" of the Antichrist.

    I believe there will be two stages to the coming judgment(s) on the "rebellion"
    against Lawful Government and its rulership. The first stage involves a union of all religions which would qualify the Woman as a Harlot...by intoxicating all peoples and rulers with the "wine of her fornication(s)". This would be the fulfillment of the Woman's "seat on the beast" of world power...but without pinpointing the time to begin her rulership relative to Daniel's 70th "7".

    However, her rulership would continue until the "7th Head is Wounded as it were to death" at midpoint of the 70th "7"...when the Ten Kings "destroy the City by fire" and confiscate the System. Rev.17:16. The "Healing of the 7th
    Head" would symbolically represent this confiscation of Power and its transfer from the Woman's rule as the "7th" king to the Beast (8th king). Instead of a literal assassination of the Beast, its 7th Head is symbolically "personified".

    This would confine the rule of Antichrist to the 42 months or 1260 days as predicted. Rev.13:5-7. So the final stage of Gentile power ends with God's 2nd Judgment (by history's greatest earthquake; Rev.16:18-21; 18:21-19:3) which goes much deeper than removing the "apostate" restrainer and restraint against Lawlessness. It also removes the Evil Trio from earth... Satan to the Abyss and the Beast and False Prophet to Hell.
    Mel
     
  8. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,138
    Likes Received:
    320
    Hi Mel,

    I have always been undecided about the identity of the "beast" of Revelation 17.

    The false prophet is obviously satan's spokesman but what is your take of the identity of "the beast"?

    Is he satan himself, a human being - satan's "right-hand man", an angelic being in league with the devil?

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  9. lastday

    lastday
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lastday

    HankD,
    IMO, You write with depth perception regarding Rev.17:
    Revelation 17 identifies three seats: "on many waters" during which the Harlot Woman "sits" from the time of the Tower of Babel,
    through her "seat on 7 mountains as 7 kings", to her future "seat on the beast for a short time". Rev.17:10.
    Therefore the beast
    does not represent the "person empowered by Satan" until the 7th Head is wounded (representing the end of the short time during which the Woman "sits on the symbolic beast"). Then the Ten Kings destroy the City. But the 7th head is also healed ("its deadly
    wound was healed"). The phrase in Rev.17:8,14, referring to "the beast that was, is not, yet is" parallels Rev.13:3 (the wounded and healed 7th head) to begin fulfilling the 3.5 year Endtime from the point of Babylon's "fall by fire"...at midpoint of Daniel's 70th "7".

    I think this "parallel" text reveals the most critical point at which the 7th Head does "double duty" to first represent the Mideast "peace" that continues after Israel's enemies invade to "take a spoil" and God destroys their armies. Ezek.39:9-10. For "7 years they use wood from the weapons of war". This happens before the beast is wounded and healed (was, is not, yet is). This would include the time of "peace" that continues under the Woman's rule during the first half of Daniel's 70th "7" until Ten Kings destroy the City.

    Second, the "parallel" text allows the sudden confiscation and transfer of global power from that of the Woman's "rule" over the first stage of the 7th Head TO that of its being symbolically "wounded and healed" to represent the Endtime "rule" of the "Personified" Beast. The "7th Rulership" would continue as the 7th; but will transfer to the 8th King. For 3.5 years the Antichrist, headed for perdition, will be Satan-Incarnate. Rev.17:11.
    Mel
     
    #9 lastday, Dec 1, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2010
  10. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,138
    Likes Received:
    320
    OK, I need to think about these details.

    I've wondered over the years about something you addressed.
    Whether the devil can manifest himself in a "body" or take possession of a human being completely eclipsing his personality.

    Not that it makes a lot of difference in the total schema...

    Thanks Mel.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since satan is the great copy cat...wouldn't he be as Christ was, a man that came to this earth but instead of being hated by the wold system is embraced instead? Jesus was indwelt with the Spirit while on earth, the AC will be indwelt (possessed) while on earth ala Judas.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Interesting...
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,138
    Likes Received:
    320
    Yes it seems he will indeed be embraced and marvelled at by the world (assuming that the beast here in Revelation 13 is satan incarnate or possessed).

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?​


    HankD​
     
  14. lastday

    lastday
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    433
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lastday

    HankD,
    In Rev.13 we see the activity of the "Beast" after it is personified and empowered by Satan. In Rev.17 we have the Woman "seated"
    on the beast
    before its 7th head is symbolically "wounded and healed". Although both the Woman and Satan's empowered Beast have a "short time" to rule, their rules are separated, time-wise, by the Ten Kings who destroy the City by "fire" at
    midpoint of Daniel's 70th "7". Her rule is Pre-Endtime while Satan rules during
    the "End of Time" which is limited to 3.5 years.

    I believe the Lawless One will actively support the rule of Mystery Babylon because she will commit "fornication with all nations and rulers and peoples". Daniel speaks of his exploits in subduing three of the 10 kings but his global power is limited to 3.5 years "at the
    time of the end...after Satan and his angels are cast from heaven". Dan.7:25; Dan.12:7; Rev.12:9-14; Rev.13:7.

    Mystery Babylon must have traceable, identifiable historical connections with ancient Babylon, with 7 successive World Empires, with
    all religions coming to be involved with pre-endtime global trade and with having been "filled with the blood of the Prophets and Saints and all those she has killed". Rev.17:6; Rev.18:24. I don't see Dubai as part of that connection. IMO, the City must have been resident in Rome at least during the time John wrote the Book of Revelation...and onward throughout the rule of the "Holy Roman Empire"...and now perhaps may refer to the Vatican.
    Mel
     

Share This Page

Loading...