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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Sep 12, 2013.
has that happened already?
I agree with those who believe this is referring to the second coming and the judgment. As such I believe this is yet to take place.
Some see a future fulfillment right on the last day...and yet others see it differently....
From what i have seen....the Post and amill believers look for Nt fulfillments to OT texts, then seek to come to a conclusion...like here-
Zech 13 is quoted by Jesus in mt 26....
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee.
33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
he identifies this text in Zech 13 as having it's fulfillment at the cross....
so when you proceed into 14....it needs to be examined carefully-
notice in vs 14,16 17 there is a keeping of the feast of tabernacles spoken of.. do we have to keep literal feast days now?
there is mention of sacrifice and altars spoken of in vs 20-21...
Living waters are spoken of in verse 8....what is that?
Is it a beverage...or the gospel given by the Spirit.....
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
in verse 4 there is a description of a division when Jesus feet stand upon the mt of olives......they look at Nt passages that speak of Jesus causing a division in Israel....
like here ...they look for themes in the prophets like this;
from Ezekiel as demonsrated in David Chilton's Days of Vengeance;
Ezekiel’s lament over Tyre
is transformed into a lament over Jerusalem, the reason
being that St. John wishes to transfer to Jerusalem the
doom found in the lament over Tyre.
Here lies the real difference in the messages of the two
books. Jerusalem, like Tyre, is to go forever.”
the more obvious parallels:
1. The Throne-Vision (Rev. 4/Ezek. 1)
2. The Book (Rev. 5/Ezek. 2-3)
3. The Four Plagues (Rev. 6:1-8/Ezek. 5)
4. The Slain under the Altar (Rev. 6:9-11/Ezek. 6)
5. The Wrath of God (Rev. 6:12-17/Ezek. 7)
6. The Seal on the Saint’s Foreheads (Rev. 7/Ezek. 9)
7. The Coals from the Altar (Rev. 8/Ezek. 10)
8. No More Delay (Rev. 10:1-7 /Ezek. 12)
9. The Eating of the Book (Rev. 10:8 -11/Ezek. 2)
10. The Measuring of the Temple
(Rev. 11:1-2/Ezek. 40-43)
11. Jerusalem and Sodom (Rev. 11:8/Ezek. 16)
12. The Cup of Wrath (Rev. 14/Ezek. 23)
13. The Vine of the Land (Rev. 14:18-20/Ezek. 15)
14. The Great Harlot (Rev. 17-18 /Ezek. 16, 23)
15. The Lament over the City (Rev. 18/Ezek. 27)
16. The Scavengers’ Feast (Rev. 19/Ezek. 39)
17. The First Resurrection (Rev. 20:4-6/Ezek. 37)
18. The Battle with Gog and Magog
(Rev. 20:7-9/Ezek. 38-39)
19. The New Jerusalem (Rev. 21/Ezek. 40-48)
20. The River of Life (Rev. 22/Ezek. 47)
If this be true or not...the study being offered needs to be considered...before just being dismissed as 'spiritualizing"
The Amil position does teach a physical return of the Lord and a final judgment. That view is one just one of Zechariah 14.
Yes..Most amill, and postmill do teach a physical return,which i believe is the teaching of scripture...most every view has some sort of final rebellion scenerio.
At this point in time...I leave all views open unless i see where they rule themselves out.:wavey: I am all over the map on this:thumbs:
You are not alone on being "all over the map" on eschatology. It is the one part of theology that causes me the most angst. I believe in a literal, and visible, return of the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not believe in a pre-tribulational rapture or a literal 7 year tribulation.
How i know i am all over the place is...i can read a book or hear a sermon by sam waldron, or michael horton.....and it all sounds biblical and convincing, then i read or hear ken gentry, or david silversides and they sound solid also.
I try to criss cross them one against another.If i read an amill person...I see what the postmill says about their strongest verses...
and with the postmill...I look for an amill response....
i find however when i try and process it as to what does it mean to me in my daily walk...how can I more effectively serve the Lord....I find the postmill men more compelling.
one or two premill brothers have said that the premill view does the same thing, but I believe they say that because they do not read the post or amill guys....
amill i find to be more general.....postmill try and zero in more:thumbs:
In the past there have been several discussions with "full preterists" (all scripture has been fulfilled because Christ returned in AD70) about this and several other passages. They have varying opinions but for the most part these literal prophecies are fulfilled spritually or as in the case of
2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
They explain this "passing away" as meaning the law of Moses the ordinances, etc.. mostly unseen and unheard by the mortal inhabitants of earth (except in Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple in AD70).
It's a really hard sell but they do still try to make it every few months.
Here we see a "picture" of Icon at the I-80 West Pilot enjoying the company of his peers, having just finished his main course and desert and now lighting up a bowl of his favorite Prince Albert while making himself comfortable for the 4 hour chin-wag sure to follow...
Icon you left out the footnotes.
Not just full preterists, but many partial see it as past as well. Maybe because they recognize it is grounded in Is. 65-66.
HankD, is Peter referring to the same New Heavens and New Earth found in Is.65-66?
Isaiah 66:18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Has this already happened? Has ALL flesh seen His glory? Has all flesh, all nations and tongues come to worship before the Lord? If so, when?
Why skip this verse? Are horses and chariots in our future again?
And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
When the Lord lifts the curse, the earth will be restored to its original state.
We don't know what the Lord will allow or not allow, so as to not pollute the earth again. One thing for sure is that the saints of God will not need modern transportation for they will already have their glorified bodies.
The only ones without glorified bodies at this time will be the few that have entered in, having escaped the judgment of God in the Tribulation Period--that Great and Terrible day of the Lord.
It is not inconceivable that horses, chariots, etc. will be used during that period. Neither is it inconceivable that Isaiah could only write about such things with the vocabulary that he had at that time. With Isaiah's 700 B.C. Hebrew vocabulary, what would you have called a car? A chariot perhaps?
Yes, reminds me of the atheist's argument that the Bible is error because it calls a whale a fish.
Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Atheists love to point out the the Bible calls the whale a fish, not realizing that the modern term "mammal" was not widely used until Carl Linnaeus classified the different animals around 1735 (I believe) into groups we know today. Before then, practically anything that swam in the sea was called a fish.
These words do not precisely translate "horses" and "chariots" and "swift beasts" from the Hebrew,
but were translated that way when that was the only "logical" word for the time in which translated.
They could easily be translated as some sort of "transportation vehicle" in today's language.
Last time I checked, camels were still being used for transportation in the Middle East.
Yes I believe it is related to Isaiah 65-66 but not addressing the 2 Peter passage specifically (which is called by some the final conflagration).
Having said that I will also remind everyone that on more than one occasion I have said that every eschatological scenario has difficulties which threaten its credulity.
Personally, IMO full preterism offers the most difficulties of this kind.
Partial preterism (generally speaking) is far more credulous.
Isaiah 65-66 is a prophecy given without any historical connection apart from the perennial disobedience of the Nation of Israel to whom the prophet Isaiah is writing under the inspiration of God.
It seems to me that Isaiah 65-66 and related time line events are more in harmony with the millennium than the 2 Peter passage wherein is the difficulty.
The 2 Peter passages IMO come at the end of the millennium, Isaiah 65-66 deals with the millennium itself at the end of which will come the final cleansing of evil and the final disposition of the evil one.
This goes on into is the “eternal state” in which we all believe and for that which we look forward to in anticipation which is the ultimate "new heavens" and "new earth"
When Isaiah speaks of the “new heavens” and “new earth” I believe it points to the absolute end of all evil and evil personages, a renovation of matter, redemption of those of the second birth all of which is the ultimate end of the savior of the world - Jesus Christ.
The millennium show that no matter what environment mortal humanity is in we will be rebellious without the direct intervention and redemption of almighty God.
It is obviously not a failure of the millennial king Jesus Christ but mortal humanity's failure from Adam on down to the material final conflagration.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Then comes the eternal state:
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Still, I understand that this interpretation has difficulties.
However, far less IMO than the full preterism theory which says that both Isaiah 65-66 and 2 Peter have both been fulfilled in the past.
It very possibly has a literal fulfilment.
I remember when I was a young man living in Palo Alto California one could not usually see the costal mountains because of the automobile smog - the polluting creation of man. We had to move my mother-in-law to the State of Washington to clear up her lung problems.
In Chapter 6 we have this;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
A bit earlier in Zech 9 we have the King coming to Zion....
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
there is the already and the not yet.Jesus the King has come to Zion.
His Kingdom has heavenly authority as it spreads to all nations...Jesus speaking peace to the heathen.....the language of zech 14 is mixed with some having been started and the final day yet to come.