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When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Dec 14, 2009.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    No, you need to post something scriptural.

    I could easily say the same of you.

    Wrong. I can tell by the context. When Jesus said this generation would be held accountable for the blood of Abel, I knew he was speaking of more than those currently alive at the time. They didn't kill Abel. And the Jews aren't even descended from Cain, they are descended from Seth.

    So words having more than one meaning is not a problem for me. I didn't need a Greek dictionary to understand Jesus was speaking of men that lived thousands of years before the time that he spoke.

    What? You mean it was Hal Lindsey that came up with the atomic blasts at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? You mean that is just fiction and really didn't happen? Wow, I guess I am ignorant after all.

    I rarely read fiction. The atomic bombs at Hiroshima vaporized men. Men's flesh literally vaporized leaving skeletons. Eyes were burned out of sockets.

    Those are facts are near as can be determined. I took a great deal of interest in atomic bombs when I was young, my father was at the atomic bomb tests at Bikini Atoll in July 1946. So, I always took a great interest in them.

    And I was not saying their will be nuclear warfare when Jesus comes. But if man can split the atom, Jesus can do the same easily.

    Why did God tell Noah to enter the ark? The whole world was destroyed then as well.

    The burning of the world and elements is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. The fleeing from Judea is when he first comes and sets foot on the Mount of Olives. Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, and Jesus will make a great valley for them to escape as I have shown several times from Zechariah.

    Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


    This is when those in Judea will flee. Did the Mt. of Olives divide in half back in 70 A.D.?

    I am tired, and need to go. I would answer more, but you'll won't listen no matter what. You just keep on listening to those men of yours and ridiculing the scriptures as you did. We will all find out who is right some day.
     
    #42 Winman, Dec 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2009
  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    #43 Grasshopper, Dec 22, 2009
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  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Grasshopper, you and I simply disagree. Now, I don't usually do this, but I am going to quote someone else. Here is an article that shows ten things have to take place when Jesus returns, and shows it did not happen in 70 A.D.. I doubt it will convince you, your mind is already made up, but it makes for interesting reading.

     
    #44 Winman, Dec 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2009
  5. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris Active Member

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    The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.

    Love your signature here.
     
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That's a nice quote, but who are you applying it to?
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Part 1

    Well, well, well, so now you finally admit you do read the "works of man". You realize how some might now think you are a hypocrite if not a liar after you previously said this:

    "I prefer the scriptures. And I am not really interested in what Gill or any other commentator says, why can't you argue for yourself?"

    "Don't you know the scriptures? Or do you just rely on the interpretations of others? "

    "We don't need the writings of men to explain the scriptures to us. I would not trust another man when it comes to my very soul, I want to find out for myself."

    I hope everyone also notices how you completely ignored the questions posed to you in my last post. Instead of addressing the topics in question you keep hopping from one topic to another. Why? I know why, because you can't answer my questions without inflicting fatal blows to your own view so you switch to a different topic.

    So now you identify who your guru is and decide to use his arguments instead of your own. So let's start being honest and identify your guru: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/matt16.htm

    I notice that is where you also got your Matthew 16:28 information. I also notice he ignores verse 27 just as you did. What is funny is his statement regarding Matthew 23, he says this:

    "We would certainly agree with you that the Lord came in judgment in 70 A.D".

    Your own guru disagrees with you on Matthew 23! He acknowledges "the Lord came" and "judgment" was rendered in AD70! HELLO......Matthew 23 flows right into Matthew 24!

    Is your mind already made up? Yes, I think it is. Despite how many holes I knock in your view you keep holding on to it and jumping to other topics hoping to finally find an argument you can win. I used to be a dispie. Born and raise in that system. So I have and will change if scripture leads me to do so. It did.
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Part 2

    Here is what your Guru says:

    "When Christ comes in His kingdom there are at least ten things that must take place at or around that time. Consider the following":

    Notice anything missing? How about WHEN the Kingdom was to come! Why does he ignore the prophecies concerning that? Daniel 2 told when the Kingdom wold come, it would come during the Roman Empire. John the Baptist comes on the scence and says what? Here is what he says:

    Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


    John announces the Kingdom is now at hand! He says "the time is fulfilled"! What time is fulfilled? The time the Kingdom was prophesied to come as found in Daniel. So your Guru's 10 reasons are now a moot point because he ignores the most important aspect of the Kingdom, the timing. But that is the modus operandi of dispies, everything is literal except the time statements which are just ignored or redefined. By the way, how can a literal, physical Kingdom come without observation?

    Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

    "Tribes of the Earth" refer to the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 Tribes no longer exist.

    Gill:
    And then shall the tribes of the earth, or land,
    mourn; that is, the land of Judea; for other lands, and countries, were not usually divided into tribes, as that was; neither were they affected with the calamities and desolations of it, and the vengeance of the son of man upon it; at least not so as to mourn on that account, but rather were glad and rejoiced:


    Joh 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
    Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
    Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
    Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


    Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
    Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

    The "last days" were in the 1st century. See Hebrews 1:1-2 , Acts 2:17

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;



    There can be no greater blessing or deliverance for His people than His coming as their Messiah and forgiving their sins.
     
    #48 Grasshopper, Dec 23, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 23, 2009
  9. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I don't usually study the writings of other men. As I wrote before, I have owned one commentary in my life, and that was a present. And I have heard plenty of very good and knowledgeable preachers in my life. So, I don't live in a vacuum.

    That post was exceptional for me and you know it. I almost always make my own arguments and post scripture. I go into great detail as to how I understand the scripture I present as evidence. If anything, this makes me an easy target. But go back and read the answers of Calvinists. You will see many, many, copy and paste articles from commentaries written by famous Calvinists. And if I find an error, you can always say it was not your mistake but theirs.

    To tell you the truth, I got a little lazy. Oh, I could have spent half an hour writting another long post to you. But you aren't going to listen to me whether I am correct or not. So, I looked at that article and liked the way the writer presented his argument. It was quick, easy, and puts forth a very good argument against your position.

    Trust me, you don't want me to go to other writers to present evidence against your doctrine. There are volumes out there that you couldn't possibly answer.
     
  10. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Part 3

    2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said , (Eze 37:27) I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    No mention of a Kingdom in Ezekiel 44. But there are sin offerings:

    Eze 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
    Eze 44:28 And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.
    Eze 44:29 They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.

    Back to Old Covenant sin offerings? Is that the blessings and deliverance you have in mind for the Jews in thier Kingdom?


    Still no mention of a Kingdom in those passages. The promise of the land was already fulfilled in their history:

    Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
    Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
    Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.





    1. Good news=Gospel
    2. Mt Zion was established and the Hebrew were entering in:

    Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Get you a new Guru:

    http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...n-of-beauty&catid=30:kingdom-of-god&Itemid=61




    The Ministry of Jesus.

    Mat 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
    Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.


    Read and learn: http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...id=30:kingdom-of-god&Itemid=61&layout=default
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You are correct, listening to a preacher is not much different than reading a commentary. But I don't always agree with preachers I have heard. I can think of many instances I disagreed with them. And you don't see me posting their writings here. I do so today because I really didn't feel like putting great effort into answering you. It get's old after awhile.

    Look if you want to believe Jesus came in 70 A.D., you go right on believing that. I think even unsaved people would laugh at you it is so ridiculous, but you go right on if that's what you believe. I happen to believe that when Jesus comes again, there will be no doubt about it, the whole world will see him.

    Time will tell.
     
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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  14. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris Active Member

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    The author of the part I quoted.

    The point being about another post. "In thing" I guess.
     
  15. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    It is a waste of time Grasshopper to try any farther to explain anything concerning the truth about AD70 to Winman. You cannot reach someone who doesn't want to be reached.

    But, in fairness to him, it is difficult to be taught a system of bible doctrine all of one's Christian life, no matter how flawed, and suddenly change when those around you remain in error. This dispensational theology has a strong foothold, especially in fundamental circles. (I am assuming Winman is in these circles based on his viewpoint concerning the "English" bible being all one needs.)
     
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Nice. Look, if I had never walked in a church in my life and only heard of Jesus from people occasionally talking about him, or the way TV disparages Jesus, I still would not believe this doctrine of yours.

    Look, when you make a claim, it is up to you to prove it. It is not up to me to disprove it.

    I hardly believe you can make a convincing case that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.. When Jesus returns it will be the greatest event in history. It will be greater than the Civil War, or WWII, or the Kennedy Assassination.

    The scriptures say Jesus will rule for a thousand years, when did that happen? How come it's not in all the history books? He will not only rule Israel, he will rule all nations. Why do none of the nations of the world have a record of this?

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Anybody notice all those people who were beheaded for the witness of Jesus who were raised from the dead?

    Hey, when did the beast get here? When did everybody get his mark? Anybody got a photo or drawing of that mark? I would be very curious to see that.

    So, was Jesus invisible all this time? What happened in 1070 A.D.? Where did Jesus go?

    You fellows can ridicule me all you want. It is you that are suspended from reality. Prove that Jesus came back in 70 A.D., you made the claim.
     
    #56 Winman, Dec 24, 2009
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  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Yea, I tried to build the case from the floor up to make it easier to understand but I should have known to quit when he said he doesn't care about the Greek. Anyway Merry Chrismas to you and Winman and whoever else is reading along.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Problem is, you can't build the case. You are trying to convince me and others that Jesus, the Son of God, the Almighty came to earth in 70 A.D. and that nobody knows about it.

    When Jesus came the first time, he came a poor little baby born in a manger, to poor parents. And the whole world knows about this, there have been more books written about Jesus than any person in history.

    And yet when he comes in his glory as king nobody noticed.

    It is your claim Jesus returned, prove it.
     
  19. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Ask your own Guru. http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/matt16.htm

    "We would certainly agree with you that the Lord came in judgment in 70 A.D."

    Next time you quote someone, you might want to find out if he agrees with me first.:laugh:

    Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

    Those poor Disciples....what a bunch of dopes. They probably thought Jesus was serious when He said that. Jesus probably laughed all the way to Golgotha thinking about how He put one over on the Disciples.
     
  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    You cannot distinguish between God's judgement and Jesus returning as King. Big difference.

    If you would have asked me, I would have told you that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was a judgement, and I would have agreed that there was prophesy concerning it. I will show scripture that I have many times posted and even commented on in the past.

    Matt 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
    2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
    8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
    9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
    10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
    11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


    I have posted this parable of the wedding many times and explained it. The first people God called and bid to the wedding were the Jews. But they refused to come. And notice verse 7 where it says God was wroth with them and burned up their city. Go back and search my posts where I have posted this passage and you will see that numerous times I said this was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

    I am not denying that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. by the Romans, that is a historical fact. And I agree it was a judgement by God for rejecting Jesus as shown in this passage.

    But this is not Jesus returning as king. No, the Jews were scattered in 70 A.D.. But when Jesus returns he will restore the kingdom. Peter and the apostles understood this.

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    Peter and the other apostles clearly understood when Jesus returned he would be restoring the kingdom, not destroying it and scattering the Jews. You need to do some study.

    So, your problem is you cannot discern the scriptures. You are combining the destruction of Jerusalem with Jesus's second coming as one event. They are not.

    Trust me, when Jesus comes and restores his kingdom, the whole wide world will know it. It will be the greatest event in the history of mankind, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. will pale in comparison.

    Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Jesus said immediately after the great tribulation that the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, and the stars fall from heaven. You may not believe that literal, I do. It says the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven. It says all the tribes of earth will mourn. Jesus said this tribulation would be the worst time ever since the world began or ever will be. Hitler killed six times as many Jews in WWII than the Romans did in 70 A.D. (one million in 70 A.D., six million during WWII). The destruction of Jerusalem was nothing compared to the Holocaust.

    You haven't proved a thing. If Jesus would have came as king in 70 A.D., every man, woman, and child on earth would know it.
     
    #60 Winman, Dec 24, 2009
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