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Where are the young Fundamentalists?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Greg Linscott, Mar 11, 2004.

  1. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Wow Bob. You talked to two guys who have similar feelings as I do (along with dozens of my friends and peers who are in the process of walking or have already walked away). Actually the SBC is close to falling into similar traps as the IFB movement of a few decades ago, but that is another thread in and of itself. As a result, many young evangelicals (30s) are walking away from the SBC as well.
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    I am a young fundamentalist without apology. Most of the names that are being discussed here are people that I know. Most of the people forming this conference are probably people that I know. But fundamentalism is dying because we "conference" it to death and never have anything worth saying. I am sad to say that there is not one fundamentalist conference that I am interested in attending with teh exception of the preaching conference at Detroit BTS. I don't see in fundamentalism that there are real thinkers. They are repeaters.

    I am disgusted to hear that Bob's conversation with two young men reflected the views that they did because that is not fundamentalism. It is a sad caricature of fundamentalism. The problem in fundamentalism is that we can't keep the worst of us from runnign their mouth at high volume.

    Fundamentalism lacks nothing but clear thinkers and good communicators. I think the mentoring issue is part of the problem. The older fundamentalists are not teaching younger men who will be able to teach others also. I think true historic fundamentalism is the only way to be an obedient NT Christian. But I cringe when I see people use the name fundamentalist because they stand up and preach about Bible versions and women in pants and kinds of other stuff that has no biblical mandate for it. I think part of the problem is that young men are too afraid to take a stand on some issues because they will be branded as "outside the mainstream" or "legalist" or some such thing. I don't care about that. I do what I do. I am not worried about pleasing people. As I told someone recently, no one is inviting me to preach anyway so why I should worry about what they think. And that goes both ways. I am not concerned what those to the right of me or those to the left of me think.

    I am a young fundamentalist and will always be half of that ... I won't always be young. But neither will I allow my view of fundamentalism to be dictates by people who have hijacked it.
     
  3. dr396

    dr396 New Member

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    I believe that Pastor Larry is on to something in saying that Fundamentalism lacks clear thinkers and good communicators. Fundamentalism flourished in a era when pre-modern and modernist thinkers ruled the philosophical world. Today postmodernism has taken over the philosophical world. It's deadly poison has worked its way in through the media and the culture itself. What is needed is solid philosophy based upon the Bible in our churches. People need to hear solid argumentation on why they should or shouldn't act a certain way, not just "do this" or "don't do that."

    Having said that I am a conservative evangelical. I really am displeased to hear Greg say that he is saddened by people leaving fundamentalism to become conservative evangelicals. What is really wrong with that? In reality there is where the best thinkers are today and really have always been. Carl F.H Henry, John Piper, Al Mohler, Bruce Ware, Robert Stewart, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah, Vodie Baucham, and a host of others are giving young would-be fundamentalists what they want -- solid exegesis, compelling argumentation, passionate spirituality, conservative philosophy, and heartfelt exhortation. But they are doing so without making those same young people adhere to a list of rules and regulations. In short, they are appealing to their consciences and to the Bible. What else would we want in Christianity?

    And the results are overwhelming. The top three seminaries in the world now are New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (SBC), Southwestern Baptist TS (SBC), and Southern Bapt. TS (SBC and Calvinistic). And the fastest growing population of people in these seminaries are young marrieds or young singles. Honestly, I think we should be encouraged. Young people are using their brains today and hitting the culture right in the face with Biblical truth and apologetic critiques. A generation of college students and young adults are emerging who abstain from sex willingly, turn down the party culture, and see abortion as a heinous act. They may not use the KJV, cut their hair short, wear skirts, or only sing hymns. They may have tattoos, body piercings, listen to pop and contemporary Christian music, and go to see movies, but their lifestyles are changed by Christ and they increasingly make decisions based on the Bible and how it will affect them spiritually. So be encouraged and let's work together to lead a generation to the cross and out into the world to impact it for Christ.

    D.R.
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Excellent points, Larry and SBC and dr. Appreciate being reminded that the negative we see is often the knee-jerk reaction to some REAL "jerks" who claim to be fundamentalists but are imitation at best.

    But it is too bad that so many "fundamentalists" give the world the wrong impression about "fundamentalism". Like the fellow said at his church business meeting, if it weren't for the people, this church would be a great place!
     
  5. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    [ March 17, 2004, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Greg Linscott ]
     
  6. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    What is wrong with that from where I sit is we have allowed our movement to become defined by "laundry list" Christianity, instead of being dilligent students of the Word. I don't mean to displease you, D.R., or even to criticize conservative evangelicalism, per se. I bring this up in this particular forum because, presumably, I am "speaking" to people who identify with historic fundamentalism as I do. I have benefitted immensely from many of the authors and speakers you listed. My question is why can't we have some of the same type of eloquent, Biblically-based articulation come from Fundamental sources? It has happened before.

    The problem of leaving Fundamentalism for conservative evangelicalism is that many who do this are in fact saying that they no longer wish to practice militant separation.

    Here is an excerpt from an article that illustartes that not only "hard-core fundamentalists" are concerned with issues relating to personal standards...

    whole article at http://www.sbts.edu/news/NewsRead.php?term=Fall2002&article=NR012
     
  7. Siegfried

    Siegfried Member

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    Greg,

    Nice research work.

    I think the difference between Mohler and fundamentalist leaders is that Mohler has not and I suspect will not allow dress standards to define his ministry. As we've discussed above, plenty of fundamentalist preachers have done this.

    As I'm reflecting on some of the great perspectives in this thread, I'm wondering how many of the younger generation have really abandoned historic fundamentalist distinctives? As a generation, are they really violating historic principles? Or are they simply abandoning the movmement that has come to define (and re-define) the principles. I probably said this earlier, but the movement is irrelevant--application of the principles is what matters.

    I'm sure we can come up with plenty of anecdotal evidence of young fundamentalists who have abandoned the principles, as well as those who have merely abandoned the movement. It does seem that many who have abandoned the movement are more committed to some of the historic fundamental doctrine than some of the older generations who remain in the movement.
     
  8. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    Siegfried,

    I am not claiming they have abandoned the doctrinal distinctives. What I believe is happening is the surrender of militant separation when those distinctives are compromised. That is the "practical distitictive" that distinguishes a historic fundamentalist from a conservative evangelical (or a "New Evangelical," to use the historical term).

    For example, I agree with many of the things that say, Albert Mohler writes. I also admire his drive and ability to articulate his views using a wide variety of media. However, Dr. Mohler and I do not agree on the practice of separation-- illustrated by the fact that Dr. Mohler endorses the ministry of Billy Graham.

    When someone chooses to leave (or to no longer be identified with) historic fundamenatalism and then adopt a conservative evanglical label, it seems they are surrendering their separatist convictions and practice.

    POINT TO PONDER: Is the answer the formation of a new movement?

    BTW- I originally read the quoted article in the daily Baptist Press e-mail I once subscribed to, so I didn't really have to "dig" to far...
     
  9. dr396

    dr396 New Member

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    As far as militant separation goes, I think it is more of an issue of HOW it is taught rather than whether it is taught.

    Example:
    I have a very close friend who was formerly an Independant, fundamentalist Baptist. We often argued about what I believe to be ridiculous issues like the use of a gym or fellowship hall in a church. His views were very strong, but he never backed them up with Scripture, especially nothing that actually bridged the historical-grammatical gap correctly. Now I agree with Mary Mohler and with him and others that women should dress modestly, but I disagree that we can make a list of what to wear and what not to. The individual, if he/she is to feel they are living out their convictions, has to make this list themselves. The danger I see in militant separation is legalism.

    Another example:
    I was teaching at a youth DiscipleNow weekend. I was talking about living a lifestyle that was different from the world. The issue of television came up and I (somewhat jokingly, but in reality having some truth) said "And as for your tv, you might as well slap two horn on either side of it because much that comes out of it is Satanic." A college student in the room took exception with me because she enjoyed watching cartoons. She felt that I was infringing on her Christian freedom to view things that were not explicitly unholy. In the end I see her point to be well taken. I should have led a discussion regarding what they believed was acceptable and not so as to let them see it for themselves. They know right from wrong, it is my job to facilitate this, not necessarily to give them a laundry list of things they are to object to or are to live under.

    So I don't think you have to be a fundamentalist to be militantly separated from certain things. I know a growing number of evangelicals who are fasting or giving up television. At a GenX church I have been attending they are preparing for KILLYOURTVCULTIVATEBEAUTY month (that is how they write it) in which they ask the congregation to fast from television for a month and instead to enjoy nature, to spend more time in prayer and Bible study, to read more Christian books, and to have more conversation time with friends. So again I will say that I am encouraged.

    D.R.
     
  10. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    I can see how this could be very appealing to a young ministerial student, but why are they really leaving the fundamentalist fold? Is it:

    1. They were never really fundamentalists to begin with. Maybe they came from an independent church background that was moving into the evangelical mainstream (think CCM, seeker-sensitive, etc) but the church still had ties/history with the fundamental college that they eventually attended.

    2. They came from a hyper-fundamentalist church (think KJVO, hero-worship, etc) and became disgusted with the movement. Once out on their own, they run as fast as they can from fundamentalism.

    3. They come from a good fundamental church but get disillusioned in college (think Hyles-type school, or see warts on IFB leaders).

    4. They come from good churches and go to good colleges but the movement seems so extreme to them that they don't want to have anything to do with it.

    5. They don't see a difference between fundamentalism and conservative evangelicalism.


    Andy
     
  11. 12strings

    12strings Active Member

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    [The problem of leaving Fundamentalism for conservative evangelicalism is that many who do this are in fact saying that they no longer wish to practice militant separation.]

    what exactly is "Militant Separation"?
    I have to be honest with you, it doesn't sound appealling. Is being "militant" the best way to reach the lost world for Christ?

    Is the fact that we Get the Gospel right and excuse for not getting it OUT?

    sorry, i guess i'm just one of those "young people" who doesn't see the difference between "real" fundamentalism (the one you say isn't legalistic) and conservative evangelicalism.

    bye for now,
    -the other andy
     
  12. butterfly64

    butterfly64 New Member

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    Personally I find that the fundalmental churches do not have extra activities for their members. It is all preaching. We are losing our young people that way. Other churches have activities and Bible studies for their youth. Also, usually there are no more than a church or two in the community. Thus not allowing group fellowship with others. Most Independent Baptist left the Southern Baptist because of the convention and orgainzed events. That may be find but we all need to be together and promote our demoniation and fellowship with others of our beliefs, how else can you do that being only one congregation meeting for Sunday School and Preaching 3 times a week and no activities for the youth but once a year. Also, in this day women are not going to give up there pants. Personally, I wear them to work and out but never to church. My pants are very modest more so than some dresses I see ladies wear to church. I think we need to be more involved with our youth and teaching them the Bible basics not that they are wrong when they wear pants. Please I would rather see a teen in a pair of faded jeans than a miniskirt. Which one will be turning the boys on? Just my point of view this morning. Hope I did not offend anyone. My intent was to bring vocus on our youth and the lack of teaching for them. God Bless you all, and Bless your work for the Lord, our Saviour.
     
  13. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    Hi butterfly64

    I’m a member of an IFB Church and our youth group is very active with lots of activities for them to participate in.

    My issue with the Church I attend is that there are not enough activities (bible studies) for my wife and me. I used to be a member of the United Methodist Church for a number of years. The UMC has a disciple program, which is divided into 4 studies, each lasting a year. I hate to admit, and my Pastor knows this and knows the reason, but my wife and I still attend these classes at our old UMC. I’ve gotten so much out of studying the OT and my knowledge of God’s Word has grown.

    I asked our Associate Pastor about ‘group studies’ and he responded that he didn’t believe in ‘round table discussions’ only preaching. Don’t get me wrong, I love preaching and I learn a lot from it, but I may have a question or two and I have to chase down the Pastor to ask a bunch of questions and our Sunday school class is only 45 minutes long and there’s no time to ask questions either. I didn’t go to Seminary, so my Pastor has had the chance to ask questions in a classroom setting and learn from others questions.

    I sometimes feel bad about going to the UMC and participating there, and even my wife participates in their moms group, which isn’t offered at our church, especially since we disagree with many issues within the UMC organization. But we’re both hungry for the Word of God and it’s a shame that we have to look elsewhere to feed our soul.

    I love our Church and I’ve tried other Baptists churches and non-denominational churches, but haven’t found one where you can walk into a service and walk away knowing exactly where the Pastor stands on certain issues. I have to set-up a meeting with other Pastors to get a feel for where they stand. It’s like they’re afraid they’ll hurt some feelings.

    Sorry for my rant, but I have a lot to say about this. :D
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Militant does not mean angry. What it means is that you stand up and say something about false doctrine and disobedience and that you separate from it.

    Being "militant" is the only way to reach the world for Christ. To be otherwise is to admit the possibility of more than one way.

    Don't confuse militancy with rudeness or tactlessness.

    As for the one who can't see the difference between "real fundamentalism" and "conservative evangelicalism," the main difference is in the area of being willing to separate for the truth. Many conservative evangelicals refuse to practice biblical separation. They preach good doctrine and they reach people. But that is not all we are called to do. We must support and defend the truth, and expose those who deny it or who are disobedient to it.

    [ March 24, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  15. C.S. Murphy

    C.S. Murphy New Member

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