Where did evil come from?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by littlewhitedove, May 13, 2004.

  1. littlewhitedove

    littlewhitedove
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    God created all things. Did He also create evil? The bible says that nothing was created that He didn't create. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Ronald

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    No never. Our God is Holy, just and righteous. In the beginning God made everything GOOD. But DECEIT was in the heart of a great angel. He sought to be equal with God. He was called Lucifer, the most beautiful angel of all. But vanity was his downfall and ambition was his goal. He thought he could overthrow his own creator and be AS GOD. But Lucifer was cast down from heaven to the earth.

    God ALLOWED Lucifer to tempt Adam and Eve. As we all know Eve gave in to the wiles of the devil and so did Adam as well. When they ate of the forbidden fruit their minds and souls became flooded with the KNOWLEDGE of not just good, BUT EVIL as well. Because of MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE, sin and death now entered the world and all who were born after Adam share his NATURE and his moral inclinations. This sadly is how evil entered into the world.
     
  3. JeffM

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    But where was evil before it entered the world if God didn't create it? If nothing existed before God's creation, then evil didn't exist either...right?

    This then brings up another question. Did God preplan Lucifer's fall? Did he preplan man's fall?

    I was taught that Jesus's coming was planned before the foundations of the earth were formed. This tells me that God predestined EVERYTHING, even the the evil.

    I need help on this subject too.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    JeffM:

    No disrespect intended here.

    There are hard food, and there are soft food. Now, if you are a new Christian learn the basic tenets of Christianity first, soft food, baby food as others call it, then from there go and progress thru more solid food.
     
  5. JeffM

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    No disrespect taken....but I still would like to know. I think a Christian at any stage of growth can ask any question that they might wonder about...I wonder about this too.

    It helps me understand my Lord and Creator and why certain things happen in the world.

    What do you consider the basic tenents of Christianity that I should learn first?

    Thanks!

    Jeff
     
  6. North Carolina Tentmaker

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    You know there are a lot of things about God that I just cannot understand. This is one of them. I do not see anything in the Bible about the need to create evil. Who tempted Satan and caused his fall? Why did he covet the throne of God? I do not know that we can answer this.

    I suspect that it has something to do with the contrast and duality of the universe. What I mean is, how can we explain light without contrasting it to darkness. If darkness is the absence of light and light is the absence of darkness do we understand either one? We define cold as the absence of heat but how do we define one without the other. If we define heat scientifically as the molecular motion of matter then how do we define heat in a vacuum? In true empty space do we have heat?

    God is holy. We know that, but what is holiness. If holiness is the absence of sin then is it possible to be holy if there is not sin somewhere else. I do not know that we can have a holy God without the existence of sin. But then we must ask where is God. If God cannot stand the presence of sin and he is omnipresent then how is it that sin exists at all?

    The thing is Jeff, we can talk about these things but I don't know that we can ever answer or understand them. Figuring out the origin of evil is not relevant to our salvation or the fact that evil exists in our world. What I think pinoybaptist is saying is that there are a lot of other things that we can understand and can know. Lets study them first.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    JeffM said:
    True. Very true. For example, I believe that infants who die in the womb, during infancy, or somewhere between infancy to childhood when understanding is much keener, along with those who were born with mental challenges, are both of them subject to God's elective sovereign grace.

    But in another list server there is a very educating discourse going on that challenges what I believe and offers enlightenment not by pointing to such vague and shaky passages as Mark 10:14, but by pointing to another reference, the study of why unregenerate men go to hell.

    As I said, it is very educating, and just might change my views if I find it lines up directly with what the Scriptures say about God's mercy and sovereignty.

    You're right. I stand corrected.

    In a way, I will agree with what Ronald said. Evil began long before time began, in the heart of a created being, his very core. Did God know this ? I believe yes, even before He created the very heaven of heaven where he abides.

    But in many passages, the Bible reveals directly or by intimation that anything that happens will ultimately redound to God's glory in eternity future when every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, and Satan and all his angels and hosts along with the unregenerates, shall be cast into hell.
     
  8. Frogman

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    I have always wondered about this question. What I have tried to given thought to is not that God created evil, I have not yet determined what I believe scripture teaches about absolute predestination, I can say I am inclined towards it. If it is Biblical, this means God did decree that Lucifer and man would fall.

    But, consider that man is a finite created being, so too are the angels. Only God, who exists in eternity, not time, is/would not be subject to such finiteness.

    I have discussed this with knowledgeable men on both sides of the absolute/non-absolute predestination of all things; both sides as far as I can tell now are able to show Biblical reasoning for their understanding.

    The best I can say is that if God did not absolutely predestinate all things [including evil] then the Bible certainly teaches of his revealed and his secret will.

    We each have experienced perhaps bad things in our lives, things that if we had the choice we would never have chosen they happen to us and not even to others because of the pain these things have subjected us to [sorry, I have been reading the Prozac thread :eek: ], but what I mean is, why?

    In our finiteness we ask why, in God's infinite wisdom and Grace we cannot understand his answer for the praise of the glory of my Grace.

    Not much help am I? sorry.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  9. HankD

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    My view as a finite mortal:

    God is not the prime mover in sin.

    He defined sin. He didn't create it.
    But He did give His creatures the means and ability to put the definition into practice.

    God however is responsible for the final outcome of sin IMO and we know how the history of the same and those who love it will end.

    HankD
     
  10. john6:63

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    IMO, evil isn't a 'thing' or even a substance for that matter, it's a corruption. It's a lack of privation of a good thing that God made. Evil can be looked at as a deprivation of some particular good. For instance, evil can be like rust to a car or a wound in your arm. It only exists in another, but not in itself.
     
  11. Lacy Evans

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    Isa 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Kind of a troubling verse until you understand that "evil" is a perspective. God is in control and ultimately all evil will be turned to his glory. God is good.

    lacy
     
  12. swaimj

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    I can see only two possibilities for the entrance of evil into the world. Either God directly injected it into his creation or it was an act of free will by another. The problem with these two stark choices is that, in the case of the former, it makes God the source of evil, and, in the case of the latter, it raises a question as to whether God is truly sovereign or at least how his sovereignty is to be defined. Yet, one of these two must be the answer. Can there be a third way?
     
  13. Johnv

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    Evil is not a "thing", like a box of cereal. Evil is that which is morally wrong. God wanted us to be able to freely follow him. The only way that is possible is if we also have the ability fo freely decide not to follow him. When we engage in actions that are directly contrary following God, that is evil. Adultery, murder, stealing, etc. Those are actions that we freely choose.

    That's doesn't mean that God created them per se. God created us with the ability to either follow him or not. When we choose actions that turn us away from him, that is evil.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Evil is not necessarily an entity unto itself. It is the result of rebellion against God. God did not create evil.
     
  15. Marcia

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    Boy, there are too many good discussions going on on this Board! I should get back to work! [​IMG]

    I like what John6:63 said -- evil is not a thing in itself. We are not in a dualistic universe where good and evil are two forces. Evil is personal - it practiced by Satan and it is in our sin nature, not as a thing in itself, but as a corruption and rejection of good.

    God cannot abide sin and did not create it. As for Is. 45.7, if you look at other translations, the word "evil" there is also translated as "calamity," and in a study of this verse once, I discovered that what God is saying in context here in the whole passage is simply that God is sovereign. If evil or calamity happen, it is because God allows it. Evil is the consequence of sin, never the consequence of God.

    There are debates raging all over the church on where evil or sin came from. God apparently, IMO, created Adam and Eve (and the angels) with a free will to choose to go against God (sin.) Since we are created in the image of God, we have that will. God allowed that. He knew it would happen but created us that way anyway. We can't know why but we do know that God created us to eventually glorify Him through Christ, and that despite sin, this will be done, and that whatever causes sin will be vanquished one day and no longer be. Sin cannot make even a dent in his glory and power. And that is one of the cherished hopes Christians can have over those of many other faiths.
     
  16. Johnv

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    Sure we can. God created persons, not puppets. He didn't want mindless autonomotons who are forced to follow him. He wanted persons who would follow him out of a choice to do so.
     
  17. Bartholomew

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    Modern physics sees light is a form of radiation. It has energy. It can do things, such as make solar-powered cars move. Darkness cannot do any of these things. Light is a "thing".
    No, we don't. But "empty space" usually has radation in it, so there is heat.

    Perhaps this is not relevant, but it has me thinking - is "good" a "thing" in and of itself, but "evil" simply the absence of "good"? This would seem to tie up with the Bible's use of the word "light" (used to represent "good") and the scientific view, which sees light as a "thing", but not darkness. Also notice that in Genesis 1 God had to create light, whereas darkness seems to have been there by default - i.e. darkness is not a "thing", but light is.
     
  18. Bartholomew

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    Just a thought - Adam and Eve gained knoweldge of good and evil after eating from the tree. But what about the angels? When did they get knowledge of good and evil? Were they created with it?

    I know this is all speculation, but could it be that angels did not need to be tempted in order to fall because they already had this knowledge? So God didn't create evil at all - angels were always capable of sin? I remember the KJV's rendering of Genesis 3:5 is interesting:

    "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

    If the KJV is correct, who were the "gods" Satan was refering to? Could they be the angels? The KJV translators obviously had some reason to translate this as "gods" and not "God" (as most modern translations).
     
  19. Marcia

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    I just looked up the word translated as "gods" by the KJV and it is "Elohim" which can mean God, gods, goddesses, divine beings, judges, rulers, and a few others. It's sort of a generic term so context has to determine meaning. I think it means Satan was tempting Adam and Eve with being like God, that they could be divine and have the kowledge God has.

    Bartholomew, good question about where the angels got the knowledge of good and evil. I would say we don't know -- the bible doesn't tell us much about the angels and especially about what went on before man was created. Probably a good thing we don't know. The Bible concentrates on man since we are the problem! :D (Not discounting the Bible as God's revelation of Himself as well).
     
  20. Frogman

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    What is wrong with simply noting that a finite creature possessed in the beginning the ability to choose; but at the same time possessed the pride of heart found in Lucifer?

    Is not Pride the means by which Eve was deceived? Did not the subtilty of the serpent under Satan as god of this world pique the interest of the creature in this thought of 'being like God'?

    Just some further thoughts resulting from your post, not trying to add nor take away.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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