Where did the idea come from?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Pastor_Bob, Oct 4, 2016.

  1. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    I have always been under the impression that one who would be considered Arminian is thought to hold to the belief that one can lose his salvation.

    1. Is that an accurate impression?

    2. If so, from where did the idea come that Arminius believed that one could lose his salvation?
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,192
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    Five articles of Remonstrance

    Article 5

    That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,965
    Likes Received:
    371
    I believe the fifth article (Articles of the Remonstrance) leans in that direction while keeping it open. I think the reason is mostly the influence of Wesleyan Arminianism and the dominance of the Methodist denomination in the early 19th century (if memory serves, it was the largest denomination in America for a time and Baptist doctrine sometimes developed in responce to that Arminianism...e.g., Daniel Parker's doctrine).
     
  4. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    I thought The Five Articles of Remonstrance were written by Arminian preachers and not Arminius himself.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,192
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    James Arminius died in 1609 and the Remonstrance was published in 1610.

    Forty-six divines and two leaders from Leyden college met in The Hague on January 14, 1610, to put their positions on paper. The major contributor was Jan Uytenbogaert who had been strongly influenced by James Arminius.

    These men were all part of the Dutch Reformed Church, and their Remonstrance was much like Luther's 95 theses, arguing against the established doctrine of the Dutch Reformed Church.

    Their writing had to be approved by the Synod, which met at Dordrecht and rejected the Remonstrance via a written repudiation of their 5 points. That repudiation became known as "The Canons of the Synod of Dort" which outline the 5 Heads of Doctrine which came to be known as TULIP (a term that was not used prior to the early 1900s).
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    Just so I'm understanding correctly, did Arminius himself hold to the belief that salvation could be lost? I've not personally read anything that would indicate that dogmatically.
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    I have found this quote circulated widely. I cannot find anything but a secondary source. I found it in an original but it was not something that could be copied and pasted, and I did not feel that it was ethical to take a screenshot and post it.
    "Though I here openly and ingenuously affirm, I never taught that a true believer can, either totally or finally fall away from the faith, and perish; yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such a kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding. On the other hand, certain passages are produced for the contrary doctrine [of unconditional perseverance] which are worthy of much consideration"[Works, 1:667].

    http://www.fwponline.cc/v27n2/howarminianwas_paton.html
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,192
    Likes Received:
    1,315
    He, like the majority of the Remonstrants, was undecided on eternal security. Which, of course, brings the whole gospel into question.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,965
    Likes Received:
    371
    I looked through the only book I could find at home of Arminius (all of my books are stacked on a table until I have the chance to build a couple of book cases) and found this:

    "That true and saving faith may be, totally and finally, lost, I should not at once dare to say: though many of the fathers frequently seem to affirm this.” .

    He also writes that "the seed of the word of God is immortal in itself, but it can be removed from the hearts of those who have received it (he cites Matt. xiii, 19). And he concludes that "this whole subject may be elucidated, if the grace of God is suitably distinguished from its various effects."(The Works of James Arminius, Volume Three, "An Examination of the Treatise of William Perkins Concerning the Order and Mode of Predestination")
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Don

    Don
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2000
    Messages:
    10,547
    Likes Received:
    212
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/arminius/works1.txt

    Vol I Section 3

    ARTICLES I & II

    I. Faith, that is, justifying faith, is not peculiar to the elect.

    II. It is possible for believers finally to decline and fall away from faith and salvation.

    I. But, to treat of each article singly, I declare, respecting THE FIRST, that I never said, either in public or in private, "Faith is not peculiar to the elect." This article, therefore, is not attributed to its proper author; and thus is committed a historical error
    -----
    His paragraph II, where he declares the inaccuracy of the 2nd article, is lengthy but must be read in its entirety to understand. Because of its length, I didn't copy & paste; it can be found at the link provided.
    -----
    From the Nine Questions:
    VII. May every one who is a true believer be assured in this life of his individual salvation; and is it his duty to have this assurance?

    VII. Does justifying faith precede, in the order of nature, remission of sins, or does it not? And can any man be bound to any other faith than that which justifies?

    ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION

    Since God promises eternal life to all who believe in Christ, it is impossible for him who believes, and who knows that he believes, to doubt of his own salvation, unless he doubts of this willingness of God [to perform his promise.] But God does not require him to be better assured of his individual salvation as a duty which must be performed to himself or to Christ; but it is a consequence of that promise, by which God engages to bestow eternal life on him who believes.
    -----

    I believe Arminius' works, available at CCEL, paint a somewhat different picture than has been drawn of him.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    I, personally, think "undecided" is a bit strong. I feel that he knew what he believed but remained tolerant of what others believed in this specific area.
     
  12. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Messages:
    3,461
    Likes Received:
    45
    That is the conclusion at which I am arriving as well.
     
  13. glad4mercy

    glad4mercy
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    16
    I thought he left the issue open too.

    I would say that the key words would be "true and saving faith". Did a person who fell away have true and saving faith? Perhaps this question is why Arminius left the issue open
     
    #13 glad4mercy, Oct 14, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2016

Share This Page

Loading...