Where did we come from?

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by JeremyV, Jul 1, 2014.

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When did the baptist movement start?

  1. Baptists can trace there heritage through an unbroken line of churches back to the time of Christ.

    2 vote(s)
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  2. Baptist churches have arisen at different times and places independent of other Baptist churches.

    9 vote(s)
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  3. Baptists are an offshoot of the Anabaptists.

    2 vote(s)
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  4. The First Baptist church was formed by John Smyth in 1609.

    2 vote(s)
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  5. None of the above.

    3 vote(s)
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  6. I have no opinion on the matter.

    2 vote(s)
    10.0%
  1. JeremyV

    JeremyV
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    There are a number of views concerning the origin of the Baptist movement. I am curious to see what the thoughts here are. If your belief is not listed here, please post it.
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    I believe the most reasonable view of ecclesiastical history is William Kiffin's "Spiritual Kinship" position.
     
  3. JeremyV

    JeremyV
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    I am afraid I am unfamiliar with that position. Could you explain?
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    It basically says that today's evangelical Christianity has had historic representatives all down through the ages of ecclesiastical history. And, like modern evangelicalism, those representatives were varied and diverse but were faithful to the gospel and thus our spiritual kin, IE, brothers and sisters in Christ. (Unlike Baptist Successionism, which seems a chain of Baptist churches all down through the same period.)
     
  5. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Our view of Scripture, our view of the covenants, our view of the church, our view of the ordinances, our view of conversion, our view of church history -- all this prevents us from being considered at any time as having been part of Protestantism. I agree with TCass, that the churches that existed alongside and in the shadow of the Catholic Church and before it, back to the time of the apostles, have maintained sound theological and evangelical concepts that prove not necessarily that they were Baptist, but that the Baptist churches of the centuries have the common bond of truth in Christ with those churches to the extent that we can trace our roots through those churches, external of Catholicism, back to Christ Himself.
     
  6. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Cardinal Hosius, writing in the sixteenth century, explained that (credo)baptists were long persecuted by the RCC, and then by the 'Reformers' too:

    "there shall be no faith more certain and true, than is the Anabaptists', seeing there be none now, or have been before time for the space of these thousand and two hundred years, who have been more cruelly punished, or that have more stoutly, steadfastly, cheerfully taken their punishment, yea or have offered themselves of their own accord to death, were it never so terrible and grievous. Yea in Saint Augustin his time, as he himself sayeth, there was a certain monstrous desire of death in them. . . . Neither was there such foolish hardy heretics in Saint Augustine his time only. For four hundred years ago, at what time St. Bernard lived, there were Anabaptists, which were no less prodigal to spend their life, then were the Donatists, some (saith he) did marvel that they were led to their deathe not only patiently but as it semed very frolic and merry. ...If you behold their cheerfulness in suffering persecutions, the Anabaptists run far before all other heretics. If you will have regard to the number, it is like that in multitude they would swarm above all other, if they were not grievously plagued and cut off with the knife of persecution. If you have an eye to the outward appearance of godliness, both the Lutherans and the Zwinglians must needs grant, that they far pass them. ...And surely how many so ever have written against this heresie, whether they were Catholics or Heretics, they were able to overthrow it not so much by the testimony of the scriptures, as by the authority of the Church."
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    That's interesting, Jerome, but I don't believe Baptists came from the Anabaptist movement, either.
     
  8. JeremyV

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    I am intrigued. Most people that see the Baptist movement throughout church history (whether in an unbroken line of established churches or independently formed churches) usually include the Anabaptists. I would like here more about your view. How do you view the influence of the Mennonites on John Smyth's congregation in Holland?
     
  9. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    I'll post more about this later, but I reject the JJJ-Organic Succesionist, or Trail of Blood, view that says Baptists can trace their origins back to Pentecost. We can't, plain and simple.

    My particular view is that Baptists arose from English Separatists and the first "Baptist" church was founded by John Smythe.

    More later, goodnight.
     
  10. Bro. James

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    Basic founding of New Testament Churches paradigm: they are not founded by men.

    Jesus started the First Church on the shores of Galilee: "Come, follow me; I will make you fishers of men." This Church was performing all functions of a New Testament Church, long before Pentecost.

    Jesus said He would never leave nor forsake His churches. He has kept His promise, through the gates of hell--as promised. Jesus is faithful, even when we are not.

    Perpetuity? See the Book of Jude. There is a remnant, keeping The Faith, by the power of The Spirit, The Holy, in every generation, regardless of the name.

    Some called Baptist fit this description, others do not. If your assembly is a reformation of a reformation you have a dilemma: all of these are founded by men.

    The Lord knows them that are His.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Really, it's a pretty simple process of reasoning out the issue. Baptists have always rejected some of the main tenants of the Anabaptist movement, including pacifism or non-resistance, which was key tenet of the founders of the Anabaptists. Conrad Grebel, Felix Manz, and other associates of reformer Ulrich Zwingli didn’t feel the Reformation was going far enough. They wanted to do away with military service, and additionally felt it biblical to eliminate the tithe and what they mistakenly called "usury" -- any charging of interest on borrowed money whereas the actual definition is "excessive interest."

    They also called for the immediate withdrawal of the church from any and all civil/governmental involvement, and rejected the Semi-Pelagian belief that no human was "born in sin" or was condemned by "original sin." Few Baptists have ever wrapped up any of those issues in their stated beliefs.
     
  12. JeremyV

    JeremyV
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    I agree that most Anabaptists did and do hold to beliefs that we do not, but I have never considered these defining characteristics of the Baptist movement. I've known many Baptists that hold to non-violence or that have different views on original sin or tithing, but I have no problem calling them Baptists.

    It should also be noted that Zwingli was not an Anabaptist. It is true that Zwingli was in the same area as the Anabaptists and may have had a fellowship for a time, but this was short lived. Being strongly influenced by Luther, Zwingli's view did not mesh too well with the Anabaptists.
     
  13. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    The non-violence issue is secondary to the "imputed sin" doctrine. Anabaptists have never held to that view. I don't know of many Baptist denominations that do hold to it.
    Didn't say Zwingli was Anabaptist. Said the Anabaptists came out of a Reformation movement they saw as not distancing itself sufficiently from the Catholic doctrine.
     
  14. JeremyV

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    Sorry, I misunderstood you.
     
  15. Jerome

    Jerome
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    How nice for you. But as I noted and is quite evident by just reading the account, Cardinal Hosius was using the term Anabaptists broadly, for those who practiced believer's baptism throughout the centuries.
     
  16. rsr

    rsr
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    The cardinal was not necessarily referring to credobaptists, but also to sects -- such as the Donatists, which he mentioned specifically in his writing -- that rejected Roman baptism and insisted on rebaptism, believing that the apostate clergy of the Roman church could not perform valid baptisms.
     
  17. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected
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    Sorry, I should have said "don't" there ... most mainline Baptist denominations believe in the imputed sin of Adam.
     
  18. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus
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    The real challenge for those advocating the view that the Baptist Church is a return to Jesus' original ministry and the early days following Pentecost must do so by linking together the corpses of many dead heresies in history and calling them orthodox.
     
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