Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by vooks, Feb 13, 2016.

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  1. vooks

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    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    Rapture supposedly is the event described here by the highlighted words. This is the most anticipated event in Christianity's calendar; meeting the Lord, mortality clothed with immortality to borrow the words of 1 Corinthians 15.

    Question is;
    Where is it in the book of Revelation?
     
  2. kyredneck

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    While they're looking for that one, look also for where Christ actually sets foot on terra firma, i.e., THE SECOND COMING, here, physically on earth.
     
  3. Hark

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    Revelation 14 testify to a special choir that was a part of the pre trib rapture where 144,000 virgin men that were redeemed from the earth shall perform in as they will follow Jesus everywhere. There are others, of course, but this reference is significant.

    Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    What follows is the 3 angels setting up the hour of trial that shall try all remaining on the earth.

    To confirm the firstfruits as the pre trib saints; again I reference;

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    So saints will be made alive every one in his own order; Christ the firstfruits and THEN the next order... they that be Christ's at His coming.

    That is what the Book of Revelation is about, calling the bride by addressing each of the seven churches to get ready to go because the Bridegroom is coming.
     
  4. vooks

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    Read Revelation 20-22 for that and before that you may wish to define 'physically'
     
  5. Hark

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    Okay. You have here the catching up of the saints to meet the Lord in the air after the dead in Christ raise up, right?

    Revelation has the first resurrection as happening AFTER the defeat of Satan and the world's armies in Revelation 20th chapter.

    But Zechariah prophesied that He will return to set foot on Mount Olives with the saints to THEN defeat the world's armies.

    Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

    So then readers are reading "first resurrection" wrong.

    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    So then Satan and the world's armies have bee defeated and Jesus has already set foot on earth with the returning saints as testified in Zechariah's prophesy and then comes this resurrection;

    Pay attention to the kind of saints that are being resurrected as these are ones as coming out of the great tribulation.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Now discern with His help why the word "first" was used in relation to this resurrection mentioned above.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    So what verse 5 is saying is that the resurrection that happened in verse 4 is the first resurrection before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on after a thousand years as verse 5 says.

    Verse 5 was not saying that this was the only resurrection, but that the resurrection of the saints coming out of the great tribulation happens first before the rest of the dead happens later on about after a 1,000 years.

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    They that be Christ will be reigning as kings and priests with the King of kings which means for the entire world, they have to be spread out all over the world in serving Him for the coming generation of the milleniel reign of Christ.

    The vessels unto honor in His House lives in New Jerusalem that comes down from Heaven. They shall testify to the wonderful works of God to all generations that comes to visit the city.
     
  6. vooks

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    How I dearly wish you can be more coherent and quote fewer scriptures. Not that scriptures are bad, but one can easily make up their ignorance with throwing off a mishmash of scriptures.

    Now,
    What part of this portion is rapture? How did they get to heaven?

    As I said, pre-trip is worse than Catholicism because it pretend to have some scriptural basis while it has NONE.

    Back to the topic.
    Show me rapture in Revelation or simply concede you are totally clueless.


    PS
    I hope you understand the firstfruits could simply be those who came to Christ first. So walk me through the leap of logic from firstfruits to rapture
     
  7. Hark

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    You do not find it significant that before the three angels set up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth, that the firstfruits are in Heaven?

    Did you see the term firstfruits mentioned in Revelation 14:4 as to whom they were that was among the firstfruits?
     
  8. vooks

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    Please,
    Walk me through your logic;
    HOW does the Lord coming with the dead even remotely hint at a prior resurrection episode? You are blinded by theories and traditions of men that you can't see the truth if it smacked your face.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV)
    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    Paul is comforting the mourning by reassuring them that Jesus would BRING WITH HIM at His coming the dead.

    He next explains how this unfolds;
    They will resurrect, be transformed before the living and meet up the Lord first and then we shall met the Lord with them

    1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (KJV)
    For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    My friend, Christ returning with the saints is the resurrection; there is not a separate resurrection following this. You are busy cooking and imagining your own things

    So John was confused in calling it FIRST seeing there was another prior one before the FIRST?

    First means first and possibly others subsequent but no way can it mean nothing prior to it

    Here is the thing
    1. In Revelation 19, Christ comes and destroys the Beast and casts him in the lake of fire
    2. AFTER destroying the Beast, saints are resurrected

    3. This resurrection is called the FIRST meaning there is none before it

    4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV)
    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    The resurrection of the dead happens AFTER the voice of the archangel, the trump and this is quickly followed by our catching up. These two events are not separated by a chasm of time as fantasize by pre-trib gang.

    Resurrection, then rapture in quick succession......and all follow the trump
     
  9. vooks

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    1. From 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Resurrection precedes rapture by a fraction of a moment.....and both happen at the coming of Jesus Christ.

    2. The only place we have resurrection of the saints in Revelation is in the 20th chapter

    3. We can therefore conclude that we will have rapture at or around Chapter 20.

    4. Before the resurrection(and rapture) in chapter 20, the Beast is destroyed by Jesus Christ in chapter 19. This means those resurrecting will go through the reign of the beast, which effectively shatters pre-trib theories.

    5. Pre-trib theorists can only salvage their fiction by fabricating a rapture and resurrection prior to the FIRST resurrection recorded in chapter 20.

    6. Unfortunately, this glorious event recorded in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 it totally absent in Revelation 1-19

    7. Some cheeky pre-trib theorists claim to have caught visions of the rapture in Rev 4:1 'come up hither...' But it is total nonsense to impute John's actual activities on the church for obvious reasons.
     
  10. Hark

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    May I ask you to take a break, pray on this, and return?

    If you have made up your mind that there is no pre trib rapture, then nothing I share will be received by you.

    I can see it plainly.

    Believers claimed in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ the firstfruits only pertains to Christ.

    But Revelation 14:4 refers to firstfruits other than Christ.

    On down from talking about those firstfruits in that chapter in Revelation 14 are the 3 angels setting up the hour of trial that shall try all on the earth in that chapter of Revelation 14.

    So how can the firstfruits be in Heaven BEFORE the 3 angels sets up the coming great tribulation? Answer: Pre trib rapture.
     
  11. vooks

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    I don't read between the lines; I read the lines and keep my fantasies to myself

    Ever read of the souls of those beheaded beneath the altar? Were they raptured as well?
     
  12. Hark

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    I have already walked you through it in post # 5.

    You have a conundrum if you insist that the "first" resurrection happened AFTER the defeat of Satan and the world's armies ( which is true BTW ) BUT BECAUSE Zechariah 14:1-5 testifies that Christ returns with the saints to defeat the world's armies BEFORE the "first resurrection" in Revelations 20th chapter.
     
  13. vooks

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    Firstfruits is a phrase that is used severally in NT and you'd have to be confused to mix up its meanings.

    Jesus is firstfruit with regard to resurrection because He was the FIRST to resurrect bodily to never die again.

    Firstfruits in Revelation are those who came to Christ FIRST

    You keep prescribing prayers and you are the one who badly need to discard traditions of men and study scriptures on your own
     
  14. Hark

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    Well, whenever you are ready to discuss this without avoiding the proof, let me know.

    It is your thread asking for someone to share and yet you have nothing to say what firstfruits is inferring in Revelation 14:4 to support your P.O.V.?

    Do we correct by the scripture or by witty off the cuffs remarks that doesn't really add to the progress of the discussion? I am willing to learn and be corrected, but are you as well? I can only hope you will continue this discussion explaining to me what firstfruits is inferring in Revelation 14:4 if it is not towards my P.O.V.
     
  15. vooks

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    the Conundrum ' is a figment of your imagination. Paul explains how the Lord shall come with the saints; He resurrects them first, raptures the Living.
     
  16. Hark

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    Okay then.

    Let's proceed from there.

    You acknowledge that there are two different usage for firstfruits.

    Are you prepared to see another usage in Revelation 14:1-4 ?

    Because this firstfruits has been redeemed from the earth whose voice is heard in Heaven singing.

    You do not see that as taken out from the earth before the 3 angels set up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth?

    That is why I see firstfruits in Revelation 14:4 as being the same reference to Christ the firstfruits when you note that firstfruits is plural in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 which was to cite the order of how saints will be resurrected and thus not referring to Christ alone as the firstfruit in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.
     
  17. vooks

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    you are not interests in learning, just purveying your pet theory of pre-trib which has zero scriptural basis. I was there and I trashed it because my conscience could not allow me to hold on to emptiness.

    Now, all I need is the RAPTURE in Revelation
     
  18. Hark

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    Is Jesus returning with the saints setting foot on the Mount Olives to fight the world's armies or not in Zechariah 14:1-5 ?

    Is Satan and his armies defeated in Revelation 20th chapter BEFORE your P.O.V. of the first resurrection or not ?

    If you agree to both of them as scripture testifies and yet you still maintain your P.O.V. , then there is your conundrum, because you can't get them to be in harmony to your P.O.V.
     
  19. vooks

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    firstfruit has no multiple meanings; it simply means FIRST of something.

    Now, seeing them in heaven does not mean 'taken out of the earth'; Hebrews talks of a crowd of witnesses probably meaning those who have died before us. I'd I put it to you that these are the dead saints in heaven, what objection would you have against that?
     
  20. Hark

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    But you said and I quote:

    That's two usage, right? Do consider the possibility that there are three usages as mentioned earlier.

    None, but that cannot be a definite Biblical answer just because you say, "taken out of the earth" is not what "redeemed from the earth" means.

    Mayhap I am reading it in light of some other event in scripture, and not just because this was before the 3 angels sets up the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth.

    Let's see. The one about the devil.

    Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Now discern that for a moment. The devil is right now accusing the brethren in Heaven, and so to hold the Marriage Supper to entertain the guests with hospitality, the devil is no longer allowed. The door to the Marriage Supper is shut and he is not longer allowed up there any more.

    We continue reading....

    Revelation 12: 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Did not Jesus warned His disciples about hating this life to leave it when it is time to come to the King's Supper? Luke 14:15-33

    And so we hear of their rejoicing in Heaven in Revelation 12:12 as Revelation 14:4 paints them as the firstfruits.

    Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    Sounds like the great tribulation is coming after the pre trib rapture as the devil will wage war against the left behind saints and any new believers as a result of the first angel spreading the everlasting gospel.
     
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