Where does believing faith come from part 3

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Nov 9, 2009.

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  1. Benefactor

    Benefactor
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    Amy,

    I see the ACRT are confusing correct use of participles with the age old mantra: If I tell someone something enough times they will believe it, the white paper is red that eventually a person will believe that white is red and red is white.

    "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" well this is the ACRT drum roll and they are as confused as ever.


    The participle in Eph. 1:13 functions as a verb so don't let them say it is doesn’t. The participle is used this way as a verbal substantive and they know that but are just trying to confuse you. As a participle it has the charities of a verb and noun and functions like a verbal adjective. Don't pay them any mind they are confused by their ongoing determination to redefine words and twist meaning. They have been at it so long they actually believe what they preach. We will just continue to love them in their craziness.

    “197. The participle, like the infinitive, is not a mood but a verbal substantive.” DM page 220.
     
  2. The Archangel

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    Benefactor,

    You have no clue what you are talking about. Too bad.

    A participle is not, has not ever been, and will never be a verb.

    One of my professors--a Ph.D in Greek--confirmed this to us over and over and over. He was my preaching professor and required us to diagram each passage we preached in the original languages. If we ever made a main point out of a participle (as opposed to a verb) it would be as good as an instant fail.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  3. Benefactor

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    Too bad your professor can read Greek Grammar and must force his personal view on his students. But that is theology not Greek he was forcing you to accept. People like him are a dime a dozen regardless of their status in life etc.
     
  4. The Archangel

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    You are a piece of work. You have no clue what you are talking about, yet you insist you do. Anyone who has actually studied Greek and worked with the text knows, beyond a doubt, that I and my professor are right and you are hopelessly wrong.

    Oh...and by the way, my professor's PhD in Greek is not theological Greek--it is classical Greek. And in Greek (whether classical or koine), the participle is not a verb. The participle is how the action of the main verb is accomplished.

    What is more the participles in Ephesians 1:13 are Aorist and Aorist participles always shows a simple event in the past, it does not a and cannot describe progress.

    So, rather than enter waters that are way over your head, you would be better served to study Greek for a number of years, as I have.

    Blessings in your studies,

    The Archangel
     
  5. Benefactor

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    [edit] The participle in verse thirteen functions as an adverb to the verb ye were sealed and what I stated stands and [edit] I have all the same material at my disposal that you do and he does [edit] I have studied the Greek but guess what, thousands upon thousands of people have [edit]
    [offensive remarks removed]

    And I do know the Greek and you are wrong, double wrong, triple wrong. The reason the translator’s use “believed” and “believing” is because that is how it is to be understood.

    [SIZE=-1]4. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging.[/SIZE]
     
    #5 Benefactor, Nov 9, 2009
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  6. OldRegular

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    At the risk of interrupting the discussion on Greek which leaves many of us in the dark I will respond to the title of the OP. Believing faith is the gift of God following regeneration by the Holy Spirit.
     
  7. Benefactor

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    And so it is that you are true to form a Calvinist and that, as it is, is still your opinion and cannot be supported scripturally.

    :thumbs:
     
  8. The Archangel

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    ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Again. I'll remind you that you are talking to a brother in Christ...that's being too generous. You are defaming a brother in Christ.

    The Archangel
     
  9. OldRegular

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    It can be supported by Scripture! You simply will not believe Scripture. You refuse to allow God to be God.

    Instead you choose to believe that man is the master of his fate, the captain of his soul. If that were really true no one would be saved.
     
  10. Benefactor

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    You can't win the real argument so you continue to make it personal. First, you pin a badge on your chest by telling everyone about your Phd professor and how you are so much superior to all others.

    Now, you continue to inject the personal element into a conversation that should be focused on the text not you or your professor or the so called superior education you received that makes you the Lord over all others simply by invoking your wonderful PhD professor. That is a slick Willy approach to what otherwise would have been a good discussion on the topic of Eph. 1:13.

    If you can't keep personal out of the conversation then Archangel you don't need to be in it. It will serve this thread well if you reframe from injection your kingship and master mentality into the conversation as being the authority beyond all others kind of approach to belittling those you discuss a text with on the grounds that your education is superior to others because you studied under this mysterious PhD regardless of who he is. Greek was around long before you, me or your wonderful PhD guru.

    If you want to discuss the topic then stay on topic and knock off the personal garbage, stop tooting your horn as you did and continue to do so. It makes you look bad because of what you did.

    You don't get a free pass with me and if you want to discuss the text find but stop the phony better than others approach to the conversation and deal with facts. Don't appeal to your greatness and the one you studied under because there is thousands of PhD who are just as capable and more and it is not impressive to anyone regardless of who it is.

    It amounts to trying to impress others: Look at me I did this or that. This is the games kids play and folk who think they are something they are not.

    I don't care who your PhD professor is so why even inject him or her into this discussion. You are the guilty party in making this a personal discussion so get off the personal approach and let’s discuss the text, can you do that?
     
    #10 Benefactor, Nov 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2009
  11. Amy.G

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    Ephesians 1:13 lays out the order of salvation perfectly.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    The order is:
    1. Hear the gospel
    2. Believe the gospel
    3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit

    I would like to see just one verse that says that a person is regenerated or born again (they are the same) before one believes. If someone can show me that, I will change my mind.
     
  12. Benefactor

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    Support

    The process illustrated by using the actual statements from Scripture. (NASV):

    Luke 7:50 'And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

    Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

    Your faith has-------saved you

    -------(God) ----He saved us ----- not on the basis of deeds (works) which we have done in righteousness

    -------(God) ----He saved us ----- according to His mercy (how)

    -------(God) ----He saved us ----- by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

    Man's part in salvation is to believe, "Your faith has saved you".

    God the Father's part is mercy

    God the Holy Spirit's part is the washing of regeneration (new birth) and renewing (of us)

    Calvinism teaches that if man believes in the grace of God with faith that is not infused before regeneration (new birth -saved) that this faith is a work. In other words a sinner who believes but was not saved first (regenerated) is working for their salvation. This approach to God's word is called eisegesis, "to read into". The Scripture clearly teaches that a lost person must believe prior to being saved. Their approach starts with philosophy, human reasoning.
     
  13. Allan

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    Before I jump in here with you gentlemen, I think it might be best for you two to maybe step back for a second - or maybe a couple of minutes :laugh:.

    Benfactor - It appears you are getting somewhat over-zealous in posting and as such are moving away from what is appropriate to inappropriate. You have decended into name calling and to degrading another, who is in fact, a brother in Christ like you are. I don't think this is typically how you deal or speak with people so "I" ask that we return to more civility here for better time and debate.

    Arch - Your beginning to slide that way as well

    This is just a suggestion, so take it as you wish (both of you).
    Set forth 'why' you hold the view you do on the fuction of the participle with respect to the verse in question. At the very least you will know 'why' the other person holds that position (with respect to the participle) even if you might not agree. This will give others the opportunity who don't understand your points to grasp a little more the distiction you two are making and allow you as well.

    This is only a thought and it might allow for some progression of the discussion. I will come in after a bit and tell you both where you are wrong, since I'm sure you will both agree my view is above contestation :laugh:
     
    #13 Allan, Nov 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2009
  14. Benefactor

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    Allen I agree but I did not open that can of worms and if you will look at what set it off to start with you too will agree. The personal subtle start was not my doing but I did inject into it because I am sick and tired of Calvinist making everything personal and not dealing with the text. Amy started it back on track and I in kind have responded so let’s see if everyone else will follow in this manner.
     
    #14 Benefactor, Nov 9, 2009
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  15. The Archangel

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    Again, you must be joking. I have not made this personal, and I won't. I do however demand that you address me as a Christian brother, not as you have.

    I would love to discuss the text and I have been trying to do so...until you interjected your errant thought of Greek and the participle. And I challenge you to find one place where I have called you an idiot or a moron or a nitwit as you have called me.

    If you will note, I have stuck to the issue of Greek and you are the one who said "The translators are just plain stupid idiot moron backward nitwits form stump jumping ridge in the middle of nowhere and you think you are king of them."

    Do I know Greek. Yes. Did I work hard at it? Yes. Did I master it so far as to get an "A" in it? Yes. Am I thumping my own chest? Not in the least. It is a statement of fact to say I know Greek, intimately, it is not an attempt to place myself on a higher platform.

    But, again, I doubt seriously that you've studied Greek in any organized way. Unfortunately, you are like someone who fancies himself a mechanic and can describe and name all the parts of the internal combustion engine, but for the life of him, he can't figure out how to put the pieces together and make it run. That's not an attack; that is an analogy used as an example.

    Now, if your Greek issues are a sore spot for you, I really couldn't care less--except to encourage you to take a class in Biblical Greek. No matter what you say nouns are still nouns, verbs are still verbs, and participles are still participles and those facts will not change because you are uninformed about them or uncomfortable with them.

    And do remember, in the future, that I do have a Masters Degree in this stuff, so I'm not some, how did you say, "idiot, moron, backwoods, nitwit." But, that really doesn't matter. What does matter is that I am a brother in Christ and for that reason alone you do need to watch what you say. Calling someone an idiot or moron or any of the other things you called me is simply conduct unbecoming of a Christian and, in my own opinion, it shows what is going on in your soul much more than any Greek you do or don't know.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  16. The Archangel

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    Allan, my friend,

    Good to hear from you and sage advice as always. I will state for the record that, while my writing may, at time, be quite firm I have never called anyone an idiot or a moron--and I won't do that. Even though Benefactor chooses to go into name calling, I won't return evil for evil. Now, I'm sure he won't see it that way, sadly.

    But, as an outside observer, your input is very refreshing. And for the record I have never "attacked" Benefactor. I don't know if he thinks a simple disagreement is an attack, but it seems like it to me.

    Blessings to you. PM me if you'd like.

    The Archangel
     
  17. Allan

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    Amy, the distinction here is derived from how each group understands regeneration/born-again means.

    The typical reformed position is that regeneration 'logically' precedes faith/justification but not that scripture actaully states this specifically as the order.
    There are those in the reformed position that do not agree with this view though.

    The other group (Arminians and Non-Cals) believe that regeneration/born again refers to salvation itself. One of my argument for this typically is due to what constitutes the new man. Old things are passed away (they are no more - no longer exist) behold all things have become new (having no taint or stain). This is not the state of a person who is not yet saved since act of salvation (justification and sanctification) removes sin and cleases us from unrighteousness and sets us apart.

    Editted in - but this is for another thread :)
     
    #17 Allan, Nov 9, 2009
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  18. AresMan

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    That. Is. Just. Nonsense!

    Calvinists do NOT believe that an unregenerate can "believe in the grace of God" if by that you are referring to saving faith.

    Unregenerates do not believe the Gospel. Believing the Gospel is the product of regeneration, being born again, being raised to spiritual life, being given a new nature.

    Yet another person who still tries to argue against the Doctrines of Grace without really understanding them.
     
  19. Benefactor

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    Not sure if John MacArthur is considered in the Reform camp but I believe he holds that faith is first and regeneration second. Perhaps someone may know for sure as to His view.
     
  20. Amy.G

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    Regenerate
    verb (used with object)
    1. to effect a complete moral reform in.
    2. to re-create, reconstitute, or make over, esp. in a better form or condition.
    3. to revive or produce anew; bring into existence again.
    4. Biology. to renew or restore (a lost, removed, or injured part).
    5. Physics. to restore (a substance) to a favorable state or physical condition.
    6. Electronics. to magnify the amplification of, by relaying part of the output circuit power into the input circuit.
    7. Theology. to cause to be born again spiritually.
    LINK


    Easton's Bible Dictionary

    Regeneration

    Only found in Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5. This word literally means a "new birth."
    LINK


    Regeneration means "new birth". If you have been regenerated, you have been born again.

    I want to see a verse or verses that says that a person is born again before they believe. I have never seen it.
     
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