Where does believing faith come from part 4

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benefactor, Nov 17, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Benefactor

    Benefactor
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    continued from part 3:



    Calvinism basically is deterministic, cause /effect and that everything results because of a prior cause and that each cause and effect is determined by decree. When Calvinism, those how claim they believe this stuff, allow for contingency in any area of life, free choice, what will I eat for breakfast etc., they in essence deny the view they believe. To say God determines all and then permit contingency is contradictory in view of some of the bold statements that are made by Calvinist, not all. It is a hard thing to consider and I think if anyone tells us it is not they are lying, but that is my take on it. I have to reject Calvinism on the basis that it limits God to robotics, pure determinism determines His foreknowledge and while soft determinism is claimed it is an effort to avoid the real issue that is posited. One cannot claim that things are determined and then say they are not, but this is what Calvinist are good at doing. It is a sea of contradiction and irrational thinking, yet they will hotly contest this evaluation.

    The question for all Calvinist is: Do you have just one choice in your entire life that is free? Just one

    What I don't want is "You don't understand Calvinism answers to avoid answering the question" because this is a cop out and I am sure some will do it anyway because they are determine to do it but are they so by the decree of God or of their own free will.

    There that should do it.

    One last statement: I expect to get some sarcastic know it all answers too (perhaps that is determined as it may or may not have been decreed or is it free will)
     
    #1 Benefactor, Nov 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2009
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    But we can know why God chooses to save certain people and damn others. Those who believe on Jesus Christ will be saved, they are the elect. Those who do not believe on Jesus will be damned and are the non-elect. God's reason for choosing is clearly shown.

    Calvinism reverses this and says God first elects a person, and then causes that man to believe. The problem with this is that it violates God's justice and makes him a respecter of persons.

    Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

    If God chooses only certain men to save and gives them faith, then he is showing partiality. But if God gives all men the ability to believe and free will, then God can judge a man justly according to whether he chooses to believe or not. Because not believeing God is a great sin, you are calling God a liar.

    1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    Well, that is a very poor example in this age where science can show the moon is not made of blue cheese. A better example would be quasars. Most astronomers believe quasars to be the most distant objects in the universe because of their redshift, while others like Halton Arp have shown photographic evidence that quasars are physically attached to galaxies with much less redshift. Arp argues that quasars are not the most distant objects in the universe, and that the belief that redshift accurately determines distance is flawed.

    http://www.haltonarp.com/articles

    Now, who do you believe, those that believe redshift accurately determines distance, or those who have provided evidence it does not?

    So you see, you would have to do lots of study, consider both sides of the argument, and decide who has provided the most compelling evidence before you settle on what you come to believe in this matter.

    But your blue cheese argument is very poor and does not prove anything.

    Lots of folks hear the gospel, but do not want to believe it. Why? Sin. They love sin and wish to continue in it. Let's face it, people perfectly understand that accepting Jesus comes with responsibility. We as Christians are commanded to turn from sin. And unsaved folks know this. And many do not want to give up their sin.

    Here is a perfect example of this from scripture.

    Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
    18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
    19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
    20 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
    21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
    22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
    23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


    This account contradicts Calvinism in several points. First, we see this young rich ruler had a desire to be saved. He ran to Jesus. He also had respect for Jesus, he did not hate God. He kneeled down to Jesus and called him Good Master. He directly asked how to be saved. So he was not rebellious toward God as Calvinism teaches the unsaved always are.

    This young man also knew and kept the commandments of God. Jesus himself confirmed this young man knew the scriptures "Thou knowest the commandments". Jesus doesn't make mistakes, this young man knew the scriptures and understood them.

    But this young man did have one big sin problem. He valued his riches and possessions more than God. He enjoyed the pleasure, comfort, power, and security that wealth offers. And he was not willing to give this up. And we see this young man go away very sorrowful, very grieved, because he knew he had made a choice of his wealth over God. And you see, it was a matter of trust here, because Jesus promised if he would give up his earthy wealth, he would be glad and have greater treasures in heaven later on. So Jesus was asking this young man to trust him on this matter.

    We can only hope at some time later that he came back to Christ, we do not know from scripture what became of this young rich ruler. But at the time he went away unsaved. Notice in verse 21 that it says Jesus loved this young man. God does not hate the unsaved as Calvinism teaches.

    This fellow could have believed on Christ. He chose not to.

    Jesus himself gave the reason people do not come and believe on him, love of sin.

    John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    I wouldn't say the young rich ruler loved sin, but he certainly loved his money more than God.

    Calvinism teaches the unsaved cannot desire God unless he is first regenerated. The story I just showed you proves otherwise. This young man wanted to be saved, but he could not bring himself to give up his wealth.

    But many unsaved do desire God and wish to be saved.

    Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
     
    #2 Winman, Nov 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2009
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Where does believing faith come from? Believing Faith is the gift of the Holy Spirit!
     
  4. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    No it isn't. God does not give spiritual gifts to unsaved man. Next, I suppose you will say he gives him the gift to preach before he is saved.
     
  5. Benefactor

    Benefactor
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Document please: Book, Chapter, Verse

    The last time I check Romans 10 is still in the Bible "faith comes from hearing"

    Hearing what? _________________________

    And the data heard becomes the object of F__ __ ___ h


    Simple easy and Biblical - just accepting what it tells us with no twist or re-definitoni of words and statements.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Good answer; too bad OR won't read it.

    It would do well to read ALL of Romans 10

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    --To call upon the name of the Lord needs no God-given faith. Just call. Simply believe. The belief is based on knowledge of who Christ is, and what He has done. It doesn't come from God.

    Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    --Notice the progression:
    They can't call on one in whom they have no faith.
    They can't have faith in one whom they have never heard.
    They will never hear of that One unless someone is sent to preach about that One.
    This is the very crux of missions; not Calvinism. It goes against all that Calvinism teaches. The gospel must be preached, it must he heard, and then a decision must be made based on the message that was heard--whether to believe or not.

    Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    --Again the very seed of missions. How shall the gospel be preached unless there are the feet of the Christians to take the Word of the gospel and preach it to them. It is required that they hear the gospel first in order for them to have faith--not God-given faith, but faith in a message; a faith that they themselves can either receive or reject.

    Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    --Paul gives the OT example of Isaiah. They all had a choice. Many did not believe. That doesn't change the message any. If the evolutionist chooses evolution over God's message of love, does that change the message of the saving grace of the gospel? No, God's message is always the same, and always will be, in spite of what the mockers and unbelievers say.

    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    --Faith does not come from God, it comes from an intelligent understanding of hearing the gospel message. How can I have faith in something I have never heard. It is almost so ridiculous a question that I shouldn't even have to ask it!

    Next time don't take Scripture out of context to try and prove a point.
     
    #6 DHK, Nov 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2009
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Yes it is! Yes it is! Yes it is!
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    The last time I checked the following words of Jesus Christ were in the Bible:

    John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    John 3:3-8
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


    John 10:26-28
    26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


    The last time I checked the following words of the Apostle Paul were in the Bible:

    Ephesians 2:1-10
    1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/i]
     
  9. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Your demonstration to cut and paste Scripture is uncanny! :smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. Benefactor

    Benefactor
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is what I call good stuff
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Not Really!:smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    The only place in the NT faith is referred to as a gift is:

    1 Cor. 12
    4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
    10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


    These are the spiritual gifts given only to believers. The faith spoken of here is different than the faith required for salvation.

    As DHK has said, God does not give spiritual gifts to unbelievers.
     
  13. Benefactor

    Benefactor
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    No It Does Not
    No It Does Not
    No It Does Not
    No It Does Not

    OR Paul says __ A I T H comes from H E A R I N ___.

    Fill in the blank.

    The correct answer is "F" and "G"
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Amy

    You might try reading Ephesians 2: 1-10!

    DHK does not believe in "the church" either!
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    I don't believe in amillennialism or postmillennialism either.
    What's with the red herrings??
     
  16. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are other passages as well:

    Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man [that is among you] the measure of faith.
    Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
    Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
    Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

    Why do you insist that the spiritual gift of faith here is distinct from Gospel faith? You just assume that? It is all faith in God that He saves us, works in us, and takes care of us.

    These other passages bring this to light. Since everyone who is a believer has received from God "the measure of faith" (Rom 12:3) (whereby they are believers), not everyone has the same "proportion of faith" (Rom 12:6). The spiritual gift of faith in 1 Cor 12:9 is not a distinct gift, but a greater proportion of faith (as in Rom 12:6). Just as one having a spiritual gift of wisdom or charity does not mean that another is completely absent these attributes.

    Maybe not the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophesy, healing, and a proportion of faith, but God does give certain "gifts" that are necessary for one to become part of the body of Christ.

    God gives faith (Rom 12:3-6; Eph 2:8; Phi 1:29).
    God gives repentance (Act 5:31; Act 11:18; 2 Tim 2:25).
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Neither is repentance a gift, but, like faith a requirement.
    Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. One cannot have repentance without faith or vice-versa. Repentance without faith is simply reformation or being sorry for one's sin.

    Why do most of the references you give pertain to Christians and not to the unsaved? You take Scripture out of context to try and prove a point. It doesn't work.
     
  18. Jeep Dragon

    Jeep Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2006
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    BINGO! Isn't that what I have been saying? People have to hear something before they can believe it. If one does not hear the Gospel, how in the world can one believe it? The only thing that we are conflicting on is whether or not choice determines belief or belief determines choice. While some people have to believe that everyone has the exact same convictions and know that they have some kind of choice to believe the Gospel, I see where people cannot believe something unless they have heard it and that it is strong enough to convince them to believe it over what they currently believe. Doesn't that make my view even more necessary to preach the Gospel than some view where everyone has the same confrontation of belief and choice that you did?

    Um yeah, but I don't see where any Calvinist believes that the Gospel does not have to be preached or that people do not have to hear the Gospel to believe.

    The same logic that an Arminian can hold of Calvinism as an excuse not to preach the Gospel, a Lordship Salvationist or a Millennial Exclusionist can against our view of eternal security as a license to sin. One who believes in a mid-trib, post-trib, or no rapture can look at all the pre-trib rapturists as an excuse for not preparing for the future. A Universalist can claim that we have a God who does not have true love for His creatures. A Catholic can view our easy access to God and flat, informal church structure as an excuse to not have to go to church to sustain spirituality.

    Truth is truth whether it makes sense to human logic or not. People do not have to be motivated to do things for God based solely on fear of personal consequences. What kind of children of God are we? We can do things for God simply because He told us to and we love Him. We do good things for our earthly fathers simply because we love them rather than because we fear consequences if we do not. Why would our Heavenly Father be any different?
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Spurgeon on Faith

    Yet, nevertheless, there are hundreds and thousands who are awakened, and seriously enquiring, to whom this is a great difficulty—"How can I get the faith which gives me possession of Christ Jesus, and brings me salvation?" Our text is the ready answer, practically a complete answer; not doctrinally or theologically complete, but practically perfect. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." "But faith is the work of the Holy Spirit in the soul is it not?" Certainly. "And it is given by the Spirit to God's own chosen?" Assuredly; yet, nevertheless, it was not necessary for the apostle to mention those facts here. Some persons are always for having a whole system of theology in every sermon, but it is not needful that they should be gratified. Paul is clear enough about the work of the Spirit in other places, and it is not needful that he should introduce that subject into every line he writes.

    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1031.htm
     
  20. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    How do I get the faith that what you are writing me is true and faithful, or that it is a lot of bunk.
    I examine the evidence in the light of the Word, like the Bereans did in Acts 17:11.
    If I determine it to be reasonable and correct then I, of my own free will, will accept it.
    If I determine it to be incorrect and full of holes according to the word, I will automatically reject.

    The gospel must be presented also in such a way. It is an intelligent message. It's proof is the resurrection. In every sermon given in the Book of Acts the resurrection is the cornerstone upon which it stands. Without the resurrection of Christ we have nothing. Ours is an intelligent faith, reasonable beyond any shadow of a doubt, and therefore one can believe it. It is not the blind faith in the moon is made of blue cheese kind of faith. It is an intelligent faith based on facts, backed up by history. My faith is based on truth, not fiction (ie. evolution).

    Knowing the facts to be true, I made the decision to trust Christ. It was mine to make. I am not saying that God the Holy Spirit was not there. He was, and He was doing his work. But God in His sovereignty allowed me to make my own decision. It couldn't have been any other way. If it was, then we were not made in the image of God.

     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...