Where Does Believing Faith Come From

I have read and re-read this verse and have yet to find faith mentioned anywhere. What I do find is that God saved us according to his mercy; and that this salvation came through a work of the Holy Spirit (the agent) and through regeneration (the instrument).

What I find is that the Holy Spirit employed regeneration to save us.

What I see is that regeneration and salvation are not the same. And that regeneration preceded salvation, since it was through regeneration that we were saved.

Now the Scripture certainly asserts that we are saved as a result of our faith. So faith precedes salvation. But this verse cannot be used to show that faith precedes regeneration.

 

So, Benefactor. Are you saying that you refuse to thank God for your faith?

 

Sorry! I don't see faith mentioned in Titus 3:5 or in Ephesians 2:1-7 or in Romans 8:29,30. I would never argue that Faith is not an essential part of Salvation just like the Effectual Call, Conversion, Forgiveness, Justification, Sanctification, Adoption, Perseverance, and eventually Glorification; all due to the limitless Grace of GOD.

 

EHHHH!!! Wrong, Johnny!

1Jn 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.


Every single person who believes, HAS BEEN (past tense) born of God.

Not only that, what about Lydia?

Act 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.


The regeneration necessarily precedes salvation: it is not the same.

 

:laugh: If your interpretation of my post is how you read the bible then I can see why you believe that faith comes from the sinful nature.

Your interpretation of my post has nothing whatsoever to do with what I said. So your first stept is to read and believe words that are written instead of adding your own words to it. Then you'll understand this verse: 1 Corinthians 12:8-9, regarding SPIRITUAL GIFTS.

But since you seem to have such a hard time understanding simple words in the bible, then I first need to explain what a Spiritual gift is. A gift is something unearned which is bequeathed from someone to someone else. The term spiritual in the context of this passage means gifts that are from the HOLY SPIRIT.

So in that light 1 Corinthians 12:9, says, "To one there is given through the Spirit, the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge, by means of the same spirit, to another, FAITH, by the same spirit..."

So you can twist my words as much as you twist the bible but your twisting the bible can never change the fact that faith is a SPIRITUAL GIFT which means it comes from the Holy Spirit inside the believer which is also why faithfulness is called a fruit of the spirit.

So I can't make it any clearer top you than God does. Paul also tells us in 2 Corinthians 1:13, "For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand."

Therefore you are without excuse if you don't understand that faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit, not from the spiritually dead unrepentant sinner.

 

God.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.​

HankD​

 

Calvinists can say what they want, the scriptures clearly show that a man can have faith before receiveing the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Here the scriptures clearly show believers who had not yet received the Spirit.

And there are many other examples.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Here Paul found 12 disciples of John the Baptist. Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost "since ye believed" which shows Paul understood a man to receive the Spirit AFTER believeing. These disciples had never even heard of the Holy Ghost.

Paul then preaches Jesus unto them (faith comes by hearing the word of God), they accepted Christ and were baptized in his name, and then after believeing received the Holy Ghost.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Here Jesus was speaking to his disciples. Were they believers? Yes. Did they have the indwelling Holy Spirit? No. Jesus here says the Spirit dwells with them but in the future shall be in them.

Now how could the Spirit dwell with them? Verse 18 shows that Jesus was speaking of himself. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. Jesus was dwelling with them. After ascending to the Father he sent the Holy Spirit (which is Jesus) to be "in" them.

John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Here Jesus shows that a man can both hear and keep his words (faith cometh by hearing the word of God). And Jesus promises those that hear and keep his words that he will send the Comforter which is the Holy Spirit.

There are many other examples in the scriptures. Just as Ephesians 1:13 clearly shows, first a man hears the word of God, then believes, and only after receives the Spirit.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How did they receive the Spirit? By the hearing of faith. What did they hear? The word of God. What did they have faith in? The word of God. So they had to hear the word of God and have faith before receiveing the Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse is very specific. First they heard the word of God, then after that believed, then after that received the Spirit.

God didn't put the word "after" twice in this verse for no reason. Calvinists can twist any scriptures they wish, the scriptures show a man first believes before receiveing the Spirit.

 

For one who understands the Greek let us (you and me) not forget the rules that govern it.

What you have to remember is that the primary meaning of the Greek tenses is not time, but type of action (called aktionsart sometimes). In this case the participle for 'believe' is present and the main verb, "born of," is perfect passive indicative. So the main verb represents the action as completed with the results continuing until the present time. The participle, though it is a present participle, doesn't in this case indicate time but `condition, "the one who believes." Also, since it is the substantive use of the participle, "the one believing" is seen as a noun.

For those who don't understand the Greek - The perfect tense does not denote a time line (first this then that) nor is that it's purpose even though in the English is typically translated in the past tense. The Greek is simply stating that 'BOTH' events are past actions and not a sequence of events regarding those actions. It is merely showing both have happened in the past and this is the on going consequence.

Thus, it means "those in the condition of salvation have been regenerated" with certain consequences.

What about her

This isn't regeneration. Regeneration is salvation. It is the old being 'no more' all things have become 'new' (having no taint or stain). Ergo, no sin and since there is no sin (old things no more all things new) there is now no need for repentance. If there is no need for repentance since there is no sin any longer, there is no need for faith since you are already one with and in Christ. I am sure you will agree that Christ can not be one with one who is in a state of sin.

You do realize however there are verses that if you look closely and try to write them off, but examine them, one woud be hard pressed to continue to maintain that regeneration (in the mainline view) precedes faith. This is why there are Calvinists who do not agree that position (even here on the BB).
Verses like:

and this:

You asked about Lydia, and your answer is above. God opened her eyes TO turn her FROM darkness (the state she was still in) and the power of Satan, TO the light (a state she was not yet in) and God, THAT she might 'receive forgiveness' and inheritance just as the others who already are sanctified.

IOW- faith precedes regeneration

I also have 2 threads I stated a while back which discuss what regeneration 'is' and 'how' it occurs. In it I show that all the things that are apart of regeneration, all come 'through' faith. Justification, sanctification, the indwelling Holy Spirit, being made righteous, and being 'in Christ'.

 

John 1
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Here the Sovereignty of God and the responsibilty of man meet.

Why try to dissect it?

Luke 10:20 ... but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

HankD​

 

Allan, I enjoyed your post, but I am in slight disagreement with you on this. The scriptures show that Lydia was already a person who truly worshipped God. She was a believer already.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

I believe what this verse is speaking about is that Paul's preaching opened up her understanding to fully understand the scriptures, much like the disciples when they walked with the Lord after he rose from the dead.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

These were believers already, but Jesus preached to them the scriptures and opened up their understanding. There were many prophesies in the OT for instance that spoke of Christ that NT believers did not fully understand at the time. But through the Holy Spirit these truths are revealed to us. However, at this time these disciples did not have the Holy Spirit, they were revealed to them by Jesus himself. Notice how in both instances it speaks of the heart. Our understanding is more than just head knowledge. The scriptures say faith comes from the heart, not the head.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Faith is more than head knowledge, it is a deep felt conviction.

 

2 Timothy 2;14, "Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value and only ruins those who listen."

MT. 11:25-27, "I praise you good Father, Lord of heaven and earth for having hidden these things from the wise and learned and revealing them to little children. For that was your good pleasure."

Children do not analyze, distort twist or look up word derivations. They just believe the simple words in the bible that we all learned in elementary school. Words like; "is', "but, "the' 'faith", "gift".

But since God is hiding his truth from those who claim to be wise and learned, it's they who don't have the faith to believe the simple words in the bible. So they have to look them up.

Well all I can tell you is that it ruins those who listen as God says. You don't have to believe 2 Timothy 2:14, but those of us who do believe it know that quarreling about simple words ruins those who listen because it obscures the simple meaning in the bible. Analyzing the trees obscures the forest completely. And that's why those who quarrel about words are the most confused of all since they don't understand the simple words in the bible as written.

But it doesn't appear that too many people here have the faith of a child or they wouldn't have to look up so many simple words. But you can never go on to solid food if you don't even know where faith comes from to begin with. Never.

 

Yes, she was a worshipper of God (the Jewish God) in which even the pharisees and all 'good' Jews were worshippers of. Now this 'could mean she was saved and needed to attend to the truth God had not yet given her with repect to Christ till the coming of Paul, OR it could mean that she was not yet saved even though she worshipped God like the other Jews did. I believe the context reflects her not being saved was the reason her eyes were opened that she might believe. But it can be viewed either way, presumably

 

The Calvinists believe that God controls everything that happens. But the scriptures do not teach that.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Here the Lord shows these men built the high places of Tophet and sacrificed their young to false gods, and then God says he neither commanded them to do this, nor did this ever enter into his heart. So man was clearly acting on his own here.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

The Calvinist idea of sovereignty where God controls every little detail is not scriptural. The scriptures show man can act independently of God.

 

Jesus tells us that the father of the Pharisees was the devil the father of lies! Do you know why that is, Allan? Do you know the difference between Pharisees and born again Christians? Do you know where the "faith" of the Pharisees came from and the faith of born again Christians comes from? What's the difference, Allan?

 

Carico,

We were all the children of the devil. That is why we have to be born again.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So, this idea that some are God's children from the beginning and others are Satan's children from the beginning is not scriptural. The scriptures show that we were all the children of disobedience and wrath. This is why we must be born again of God.

But you must first believe while a sinner to be born again.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

This verse teaches that those that first received Jesus and believed on him, "to them" gave he power to become the sons of God.

Now why would he need to give this power to someone who already had it?

 

It is a mistake to confuse the gift of the Holy Ghost, i.e. the baptism of the Spirit, the clothing with power from on high, the sending of the comforter, which came on the Day of Pentecost, with the work of the Spirit in regeneration. The two are not the same. The former was a special ministration of the Spirit and a gift to the infant church which enabled it to grow and spread and to conduct it's warfare “against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” This ministration of the Spirit was the ONLY reason that the gates of hell did not prevail against the church. The work of the Spirit in regeneration had been around long before the Day of Pentecost.

 

I haven't forgotten: but perhaps you have forgotten proper rules of translation. The fact is, this sentence shows BELIEVING to be conditioned upon HAVING BEEN BORN OF GOD. NOT vice versa.
The only way to properly bring this relationship into the English, is with the temporal aspect: which is what the translators have done.

So, Because you have been born of God, you believe. Not as a temporal aspect, but one of condition: which actually makes the case much stronger.

No. It is denoting conditionality: one is conditional upon the other. And "both" are not in the past. "Believe" is in the PAI, denoting "now, and continual". This demands that "has been born" precede belief in condition, if not time.

And: the "has been born" is passive as well: something done to you, not something you brought on yourself.

No. It means "those in the condition of BELIEVING have been regenerated.

Except repentance is continual: we are even supposed to repent as believers.

By your logic, I guess i can just "go on sinning, that grace may abound."

Not at all: these verses support regeneration preceding justification.

1 Cor 7:22 For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people.

Like this Slaves to Sin> Called by God/Regenerated> faith: now free.

Again, this supports Regeneration preceding faith...

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God opens their eyes (regeneration)> they turn from darkness to light (actions: they repent in faith)> they receive forgiveness of sins (inheritance).

I suppose you are viewing things different than what I have been taught. Regeneration and salvation are not the same thing. Once one is "cleansed" from the old nature, and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, they still must turn to God.

NO: this is speaking of ACTION. God opened her eyes (freed her from bondage to sin), and then because of this, she turned from darkness to light.

 

Since so few here seem to believe 1 Corinthians 12:8-9 that faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit, or Ephesians 2:8-9 that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast, or 1 Corinthians 2:14 that the man without the Spirit cannot understand things from God, then I'll relay my own personal experience which is why I know those verses are true.

I was an unbeliever for most of my life. I wanted to understand the bible, but it didn't make sense to me. I tried to understand it but it was gibberish to me.

To make a long story short, one day when I had come to the end of myself, I cried out to God to help me. I felt as if a hand had touched my back, I felt heat rush from my neck to my toes and when I opened my eyes the sun streamed into the window. The sun had been out the whole day and there wasn't a cloud in the sky. But after I opened my eyes, it was so bright that the whole room seemed a brilliant white light. The colors on the bedspread were vivid whereas in comparison to before my eyes were closed, they were drab. That light is still with me today.

Then I opened the bible, and every word was crystal clear. I actually felt like I was eating them. They were so simple and I knew they were true. Now that didn't come from myself because I had tried to believe the bible for years through human intelligence but could not. But as 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 tells us, the human mind cannot understand the mind of God and I know that first hand.

So now, not only do I know that one cannot have faith without the Holy Spirit, it's no surprise to me that those who claim that faith comes from man's sinful nature are the ones who ignore passages, have to look up word derivations or change them into the opposite. But those who've been born again, don't have to change or ignore one word or passage in the bible. They are simple enough for a child to understand because Jesus said he would reveal his truth to little children, not to those who claim to be wise and learned.

So the bible has to be simple enough for a child to understand and it is as Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 1;13, "For we do not write you anything that you cannot read or understand."

So there's no reason whatsoever to argue about simple words like "faith' or "is" because even children understand them. It's those who claim to be wise and learned that don't understand them because they don't have the faith of children so it's they who have to argue about simple words which Paul tells us not to do in 2 Timothy 2:14.