Where does the ability to hear come from?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by npetreley, Jul 6, 2004.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    Jesus spoke to Jews in John Chapter 8. Some heard and believed Him (John 8:30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him). Some did not. Why not? Did they choose not to believe of their own free will?

    John 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."
     
  2. Skandelon

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    Everyone,

    Nick won't reply to this post which is fine with me but you should be aware of the mistake he is making in his interpretation of this verse.

    He thinks that Jesus is addressing the non-elect unbelievers in this passage saying that they are unable to hear Christ's words because they are of their father the devil as opposed to the elect who are of God. He therefore concludes that the words, "He who is of God hears God's words" is a reference to the elect ones who will hear and believe. This is NOT TRUE.

    All of us are children of the devil from birth and none of us are "of God". The only one who is "of God" is Christ himself. When Jesus says, "He who is of God hears God's words" he is referring to Himself as being the only one who can hear God's words and know them. He is not saying that all men cannot hear and understand the gospel message after he is raised up from the earth as Calvinists presume. In other words, he is not contrasting the elect with the non-elect, he is contrasting himself with the rest of humanity.

    Earlier in the same chapter Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."

    You can see that there is something that Jesus' audience has yet to realize about Him. Many of those in this audience have believed him (vs 30) but they still haven't really understood or realized everything there is to know about Him. They won't realize these things UNTIL He is lifted up. Why? Because they are not "of God." None of us are.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    John 12:32 God "DRAWS ALL MEN" unto Him. That "enables all that total depravity disables" even by Calvinist terms. They just don't want God "Drawing ALL men".

    But then they don't like the fact that "God so loved the WORLD" so ... I guess there is nothing new here.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I quote...

    47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

    ...and you quote (as if there's some connection)...

    "God so loved the world" and ┬ĘDRAWS ALL MEN" (even though the word "men" does not appear in the Greek).

    So can you tell me how this is related to the fact that one does not hear because one is not of God?
     
  5. Skandelon

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    BobRyan,

    Would you tell Nick that NO ONE is "of God" except Christ.

    Jesus is not contrasting the elect's ability to hear with the non-elects inability to hear. He is contrasting HIS own ability to hear His father with that of the rest of humanity (even believers in his audience vs 30). He says nothing about man's ability to understand the gospel after He is raised up as mentioned in verse 28.
     
  6. Tatian

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    "Jesus spoke to Jews in John Chapter 8. Some heard and believed Him (John 8:30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him). Some did not. Why not? Did they choose not to believe of their own free will?"

    Jesus is obviously speaking to the pharisees who he previously in the same chapter called them sons of the devil.

    My argument would differe some from Skandelon. OBVIOUSLY whoever is of God will hear from God. This is a present position of a relationship with
    God. This is not a positional argument for arminianism or calvinism. This does not address the solution to depravity, this assumes it is already addressed. Or would you contend that one who "hears the words of God" are not saved?
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Skandelon and other free willers,

    Who is of the devil? What are some characteristics of those who are of the devil? They cannot hear the truth. They desire to do the things of their father, the devil. Can a person whose father is the devil and desires to do the things of the devil choose to hear the things of God and choose God? I would think not.

    It seems clear to me in the context of that passage that he is not making a distinction between Jesus and mankind in general.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Skandelon

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    Joseph, you are of the devil and so am I. He is speaking to people who believe in him too you know. Read verse 30.
     
  9. Tatian

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    "Who is of the devil? What are some characteristics of those who are of the devil? They cannot hear the truth. They desire to do the things of their father, the devil. Can a person whose father is the devil and desires to do the things of the devil choose to hear the things of God and choose God? I would think not."

    Welcome to the debate, Joseph. So we both acknowledge the problem of depravity. So what is the solution to this? My position will be that the Lord enables and you would say the Lord coherses. This passage does not state the solution to the problem of depravity it assumes its solution already accomplished. This is not an
    appropriate passage for this discussion. The issue is moot and neutral.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Having "chosen" not to receive Christ - they also do not obey the Words of Christ.

    John 1 "HE came to His own (chosen, elect) but His own received Him not"

    "the light shone IN darkness" - the supernatural act of God was TOWARD those in darkness -- but the DARKNESS did not accept, men loved darkness rather than light. HENCE they also were not listening to the instruction of Christ for having heard - they rejected Christ.

    Christ said "IF YOU did not see you would have no sin, you see -- so your sin remains".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Christ said "Behold I stand at the door AND knock.... IF any man hears AND opens the door I WILL COME IN"

    That is the Arminian form.

    Now for the Calvinist form of Rev 3...

    "Behold I stand at the door and Knock - AND I come in and cause those on the inside to hear THEN I open the door for them.

    So for those arbitrarily select FEW times as I choose to do this -- and for the arbitrarily selected ONE that I Choose to do that for--- then and only then are they saved. The rest (the many of Matt 7) I do not care enough to cause them to hear and open the door... nor do I care to knock".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. KayDee

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    Joh 8:30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him. ESV

    As He was saying these things, many believed. It was after they heard the words, they believed. So, while He was saying the words they did not believe. Also, what did they believe - it sounds like further on in the text, they are not believing the truth. :45-:46.

    Joh 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. :46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?



    Just a thought.

    [ July 10, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: KayDee ]
     
  13. npetreley

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    That's funny -- my Bible doesn't have "chosen" or "elect" in that verse. And my Bible goes on to say more about this (emphasis mine)...

    11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Born...

    not of blood = bloodlines don't matter

    not of the will of the flesh = works don't matter

    not of the will of man = desire and choice doesn't matter

    but of God = God is ENTIRELY responsible for our rebirth as children of God
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    That's funny -- my Bible doesn't have "chosen" or "elect" in that verse. And my Bible goes on to say more about this (emphasis mine)...

    11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Born...

    not of blood = bloodlines don't matter

    not of the will of the flesh = works don't matter

    not of the will of man = desire and choice doesn't matter

    but of God = God is ENTIRELY responsible for our rebirth as children of God
    </font>[/QUOTE]It should be noted that "the will of man" can be interpreted "husband's will" as refering to the man of the house making the decision for the family as was the custom of that day. Or even if left as "the will of man" it could be speaking of the will of OTHERS. Or it could simply mean that the birth process itself is from above eventhough it follows men's faith.

    Look at verse 12 which procedes verse 13 and it is clear that one must believe before they are even given the right to be born as a child of God. The birth itself is from above and not something anyone else can do.
     

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