Where have all the Preachers gone?

Chargrove, I think that's called "too many chiefs, and not enough indians". I agree with you. Flocks need shepherds.

 

This is an interesting concept, but I've seen it NOT work because everyone in the congregation had different ideas and chaos was the order of the day. God is not the author of chaos. Therefore, I find it works best when a pastor is called to lead the congregation. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I've seen it done in a church that has been in existence for about 60 years. There are many leaders in that church. The younger leaders are being trained by those who are older. They are not a purely congregational led church. It is a leader led church. The vast majority of the people in a congregation are not leaders and do not think like leaders. They have no God given passion to lead either. So the decisons they would make are the same decisons non-leaders would make. That is the reason for chaos. Who would follow someone who does not know where he is going?

Strong leaders make more strong leaders. Those who are strong leaders often will say they were trained by other strong leaders.

 

Paul never risked his life, but did he hide he was a Christian because it was "illegal" ...umm NOPE! </font>[/QUOTE]Nobody who is effective can hide it. But it sure doesn't do much good to be stupid either. In my friend's Bible studies were informers. The Bible study was at a different location each time they met. The informer would not know that though. In that country people were shot and killed. Because he was an American they watched him but didn't give him too much trouble. Even when he came back to the US he was being watched. Once when he came to visit me in the US he told me not to tell anyone that he had visited me or what we said. In the area where he lived about 500 people were shot and killed.

Remember what Jesus said in Mark 6:11, "Any place that does not receive you or listen to you, as you go out from there, shake the dust off the soles of your feet for a testimony against them."

Even Jesus told them when there was a time to leave. It is not just about preaching. It is about obedience. Some people are unresponsive and hard. Others are easy to lead. Some want to grow and others get mad when you try to lead them.

 

gb;
In fact it fits quite nicely. You miss the key. "humble themselves". This is not God humbling them, they must do it themselves. And quite frankly, MOST Amerkins WON'T. Why? because they get almost NO PREACHING to that effect.

As to your comments about the Korean pastors? Your reply has nothing to do with the FACT that it IS Korean pastors and they WERE PREACHING. And they ARE in Iraq. Not 'some communist' country. What they do or don't do in 'some communist' country has no relevance to what they ARE doing in Iraq, which is NOT a communist country. It is a MUSLIM country. Which anybody with any sense KNOWS is/was a dictatorship based on theocratic extremism.
Jim

 

Caleb;
As the saying goes....'ya' hit the nail on the head boy'.
Good job. Very good observation. And EXTREMELY accurate.
Jim

 

CR:

Your above post against "ear-tickling" preaching is the typical garbage I grew up listening to. It is so easy to burn those straw men b/c you can create such a cloud of smoke that your audience rarely recognizes you are not burning anything of substance.

If you want to actually discuss some real issues, I am more than willing. But if you want to continue to attack erroneous caricatures, you will have to do it alone.

AV:

I can't help but chuckle as I read your above post. For one, the word in 1 Cor 1.18 is logos. Recognize it? It is the same word used in John 1: The WORD was made flesh. You can't seriously believe that the MVs have omitted preaching??? Perhaps you would be better served to explain why the KJV translators used "preaching" for logos.

No one here is against preaching. Again, it is easier to suggest we are b/c that is the only way you can justify your illogical positions. As has been demonstrated time and time again, those who live with the type of mentality you portray have no logical basis for their preferences disguised as "beliefs".

Living in the world of boundary markers allows you to feel spiritually superior and justify your own preferences in the name of "standing for the truth." In reality, Jesus reserved his harshest comments for those who lived in the very world you espouse.

But don't lose heart. There is freedom available for those who are willing to take a step back and recognize how big God truly is.

 

I would be willing to place a $1 wager that there is ONE person in that congregation to whom everyone looks as the top banana, so to speak. I cannot conceive of a circumstance where it would be the best, or even the proper biblical, model for any congregation to meet without someone who has been ordained by a representative group of members to be the man in charge of all delegated functions that transpire within the realm of that group of believers. You know, sometimes I feel that there are too many little churches that could achieve more for the kingdom if they pooled their memberships and resources to become fewer larger churches. I'm not promoting a type of religious socialism, but I see so many little cottage congregations come and go where I live and wonder to what extent their founders and members worked and toiled to eventually see their church shut its doors because it can't win members to pay the electric bill. It almost seems selfish in a large metropolitan area to start churches over and over again just because someone perceives a need to reach a certain clientele. Is that not the responsibility of churches already in existence????? What is the point of raising money to send to the Bundhi tribes when there are unsaved all around, which causes NEW churches of the same demonination to be started to try and reach the people right here that should have been reached already by the already-existing churches? Am I being shortsighted?

I just do not understand why new little churches must be started that supposedly teach the exact same thing as churches already here in a large metropolitan setting. Are people so lazy they can't drive and extra ten minutes? Is the body of Christ so divided that it cannot peacefully coexist together as one congregation of believers? What would Jesus say about us?

 

You are right but he has earned that distinction by leading over a period of many years. He was not given that position. Many years ago he learned from the older men in the congregation at the time. He had proven himself by the time he got there by his proven leadership.

Where I live the smaller ineffective churches are dying and those who are doing the job are getting larger. People here are not loyal to the name on the sign but to the group of people who want to live for Jesus and do ministry.

 

SBC;

Now why did I suspect you would go and hide behind yer grrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeek? Is it because you don't trust anybody else but your own self to translate scripture? Or is it because I hit a nerve?
And if as you say that "no one here is against preaching" why are your feathers so ruffled?

Never fear fellow soldier. I have no problem with allowing God to be as big as He wants to be. That is why I believe Him when He tells me that the foolishness of PREACHING is the tool He has chosen to reach a lost world. NOT teaching, sharing, or any other way worldly christians have chosen to circumvent God's ordained way of getting the Gospel out of the comfy lil' buildings and into the streets where it can reach LOST PEOPLE.
And just exactly what is so illogical about believing what God SAID?
My pastor once preached a message entitled "modern weapons to illustrate the Two-edged Sword". He even used actual weapons for visual aides! Gotta love them kind of guts! His point was clear and concise.
When in the foxhole, and you see your fellow soldier has a 22 cal. revolver pointed at the enemy of souls, do not point your AK 47 at him. Keep it pointed at the SAME enemy.
Some folks, all they got is a 22 and some got the AK47, but we should both be using it in the same manner and for the same reason and under orders of the same General. To kill the enemy and save lives. But don't let some inexperinced private go waving his pea-shooter in your direction either!
God calls that preaching. Have you studied the sermons in Acts lately? I challenge you to show me where Stephen, Paul or Peter were NICE, or SHARED with their audience.
I will go out on a limb here. I betcha they was "a-spittin' and red faced!
And they got results. Some folks believed and repented, but other folks got down right MAD !
That's what preachin' is supposed to do.
That's Bible. If folks ain't either mad, glad or repenting, then you ain't preachin'.
Jim

 

Jim,

Some careful study of 1 Cor 1 is in order for you. The issue there is the message, not the method. Paul is telling you that what is important is the message you preach ... i.e., Christ crucified. THe method in which that message is communicated is not his point of focus. Neither should it be yours unless you desire to twist the passage.

You have set up a huge straw man here. You and CR have an Elijah complex ... that you are the only ones left. While I reject the seeker sensitive and megachurch philosophies, I cannot share your perspective becuase your objections are not rooted in the biblical text, but rather in the last 40 years of church culture. It is unwise to have such reasoning. Use the Bible as your reasoning, not your background.

 

Larry,

The main problem I see with the "preaching" that Jim is talking about is that it doesn't DEAL witht he text. The "old ways" are to read a text, and use is as a jumping-off point for thirty minutes of pet peeves and opinion.

How does this deal with the text? How does one grow spiritually from this? How can a member of a congregation who sits under this ever hope to be prepared when someone comes along with the questions that rock their faith?

Opinions cannot save anyone. Pet peeves cannot save anyone. Ranting about how 'so-and'so' church does this, and 'so-and-so' church does that cannot save anyone. Shouting about skirt length, hair length, or body jewelry cannot save anyone.

Only the God can save, and He chooses to do that through the truth of His word, through faith in Jesus Christ.

How this is proclaimed is irrelevant. But the content of this proclomation is.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Some would say that the messenger is of little importance and the message is of most importance. But if the messenger is not the kind of man God uses it is highly unlikely people will listen. The ungodly man who labels himself as a believer and acts like a pseudo-Christian draws attention to himself and not Christ. The Bible calls that man a false teacher.

 

I wouldn't say that how it is proclaimed is irrelevant. There are some inappropriate ways to communicate the gospel. But neither would I say that pulpit pounding, foaming at the mouth, sweat producing, lunacy from behind the pulpit is the only way. You are certainly right that far too much preaching from both sides of the spectrum uses the text only as a departing point to say whatever the "preacher" wants to say.

And yes, the messenger is very important. 1 Thess 1 and 2 show us that (among other passages).

 

He must increase and I must decrease.

 

Amen, gb! Amen!

 

Larry;
I agree that "foaming at the mouth" and "lunacy from behind the pulpit" are inappropriate. I will not say that "pulpit pounding" and "sweat producing" are not appropriate, at times.
And I have never said that preaching opinion and pet peeves is the only way either. (not that you did).
Wwhat I AM trying to say is that if the man in the pulpit is not using the BIBLICAL model of preaching then he ain't preaching! And you will note that I used the sermons of the men in Acts as examples. If they are not to be our models for what a preacher is supposed to do the tell me, wise one, just WHO is?
In addition, you will also note that when Jesus PREACHED, He got the results that I listed as what preaching does. Some repented, some were glad to hear the Word, and some got mad!
This is what preaching is.
Teaching on the other hand does not produce the same results. If it did then the churches of this nation would have a far greater impact on the society around them than they currently do.
This is undeniable. Just because, perhaps, you got offended sometime or other by real preaching, does not negate my point. It only re-inforces it.
Some styles may not be to your liking. Ok fine. But my point remains that there is a great dirth of real preaching in this land.
Jim

 

Sarcasm doesn't help your point. Biblical preaching is the model. But what you are talking about is not biblical preaching. Paul addressed people on their terms. He reasoned with them from teh Scriptures. He was not offfensive in his presentation. I too would use the sermons in Acts as models for preaching And on that basis, I would reject hte very kind of preaching you seem to be talking about.

And that is happening in churches of all kinds. Not all churches have good preaching to be sure. Many just give moral messages with little basis in Scripture. But not all ...

That simply is not true. Quite often, people don't understand the difference between teaching and preaching. And the reality is that there is not a great difference. In terms of Scripture, they are greatly intertwined. But the reality is in many ministries, including my own, that teaching is having a far greater impact that than your type of preaching would. That is simply teh reality of it.

There is a great dearth of preaching and you are encouraging the continuance of that dearth. I don't encourage that dearth. I am not offended in the least by real preaching. I am offended by much of what goes on in churches that are pretending to be fundamentalist. And it doesn't matter to me because I can see through it. But unfortunately it is affecting unbelievers negatively because people do not know how to handle the Word and how to communicate it effectively. The result is seen in the lack of changed lives.

We need a biblical model of ministry, not a 1960s and 70s model of ministry. We need to get back to Scripture.

 

Additionally, NOBODY would presume to imply that preaching on the standards a christian should have will get a man saved. That is lunacy. Also it isn't Biblical preaching. Again, look in Acts for examples of what I am talking about. Here's some help.
Acts 2:14.
Acts 3:12.
Acts 4:8.
Acts 5:29.
Acts 7:2.
Acts 10:34.
Acts 13:16
There are other sermons, but these should get you started.
Jim