Where is paradise right now?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Lacy Evans, Oct 31, 2004.

  1. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
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    Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


    I know most believe that the OT saints were in a compartment of Hell called Paradise (Often referred to as Abraham's Bosom, a term which I take much more literally.)

    My question is where is Paradise now? Did Christ carry it up to Heaven? If it is a literal place in the heart of the earth, wouldn't it have left some kind of a hole? Did he just take the souls? Is David still down there?


    Was it the "captivity" led captive? There is evidence (Acts 2:34) that David still lies in the underworld. I have heard both sides and am still unconvinced of either argument.

    I think we should challenge the popular notion of "die and go to Heaven/die an go to hell", just to see if it bears scrutiny. Do the saved dead still wait for the ressurrection in Paradise? Could it be that all the dead still reside in the underworld?

    Paul was caught up into paradise. Does that necessarily imply the direction of the destination or could it just refer to the mode of transport?

    Just thought I'd open up the subject of the intermediate state between Death and Ressurrection.

    Lacy
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    Lacy,

    Please read mine post at topic-'Millennial Exclusionists', discuss about paradise recently.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Lacy Evans

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    I read your post DPT. I never said I don't believe Paradise is in Heaven now. I just said I am not yet convinced. What do we do with the statement made after the ascension of Christ that David hath not yet ascended. Did they leave him down there to turn out the lights?

    Also, I know that there were earthquakes around the time of the crucifixion and ressurrection but to tear out and remove a whole realm from the heart of the Earth (unless I'm being too literal) would, in my opinion, have caused major global geological upheaval. (Even if it was relatively small.)

    lacy
     
  4. Lacy Evans

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    I am not posing as an expert (Obviously) on this subject. I have read several views. I am just asking for other's thoughts.

    Lacy
     
  5. Marcia

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    I think Acts 2.34 is saying that when David said this, he had not ascended into heaven/paradise yet.

    I think paradise is where God is and I don't think we know exactly where that is. When the rich man in Luke 16 was said to be in Abraham's bosom, I've been told that was a euphemism for being with God.
     
  6. JohnBaskette

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    Marcia;
    God-The Father, God-The Son, and God-The Holy Ghost (THE GOD HEAD) are in The Third Heaven, THEESE THREE ARE ONE.
    In Christ; John
     
  7. superdave

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    I would agree with the statement that OT saints remained in an indeterminate state referred to as Paradise or Abraham's bosom until Jesus ascention. I do believe it was the captivity led captive (literally, he led captives in his train) referring to the practice of parading captured enemies after a victory. Paul did say that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord, I think those who die as saved individuals do go to heaven immediately, no purgatory or waiting around for their unfinished business to get taken care of.

    It fits the whole of scripture, but I am not convinced that you could be very dogmatic about it. Many Godly folks disagree on this one, so we probably are all wrong on the details.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    2 Corinthians 5:8
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    Paul didn't state that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. He says they are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. If I will to be with Jesus rather than at the office, that doesn't mean I'm going straight there when I get off work. A similar line of reasoning is this one here:

    1 Corinthians 13:1
    Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

    Charismatics use this as evidence of some kind of angelic prayer language babble. Paul didn't say he spoke in the tongues of angels. What he said was, even if he did, it wouldn't do him any good without charity.

    2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

    By the same reasoning, would we have to believe that Paul was omniscient, and that he was set on fire??
     
  9. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    2 Corinthians 5:8
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    Paul didn't state that to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord. He says they are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. If I will to be with Jesus rather than at the office, that doesn't mean I'm going straight there when I get off work. A similar line of reasoning is this one here:
    --------------------------------------------------


    Take a look at the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD:

    2 Corinthians 5:8
    We are {B]confident[/B], I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


    These are not Pauls thoughts or ideas. These are the VERY WORDS OF GOD. So, what does God tell us? That we are to be confident AND willing, to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. If your spirit is cleansed, and you are a new creature in Christ, born again of the Spirit, your spirit REMAINS with the Lord, whether we are ALIVE or ASLEEP in CHRIST. This is the TRUTH. You are so dangerously close the Roman Catholic belief, and you won't even see it because you are too stubborn to recognize the heresy in the false doctrine you so much believe in. I would hate to be pastored under you, as you give ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE OR ASSURANCE to those who have died, or will die, that they CANNOT BE SURE now, that they will go directly to heaven, and REMAIN with their Lord upon their death in this life. How very sad and foreign this is for the true churches to believe today. The God you teach, is not the God I KNOW AND LOVE, and who has given me PEACE THAT SURPASSETH ALL UNDERSTANDING, but a cruel and unmerciful God, who has lied.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  10. Lacy Evans

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    Since James is not a pastor, I'll asume that was directed toward me. What in the world does this have to do with the location of Paradise? This thread has nothing to do with Kingdom exclusion. Most Millenial Exclusionists believe Paradise is in Heaven now. Take a deep breath, read the thread topic, and try again.

    Lacy
     
  11. Johnv

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    Where is paradise right now?

    It's where my daughter works. Yep, Paradise Bakery. I get free samples of Paradise all the time.
     
  12. Lacy Evans

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  13. Phillip

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    Maybe I am the one getting too far out of line here, but I take the "mode of transport" option.

    It is my OPINION that these different physical places, may not be as physical as we would think. No, don't go jumping on me and saying that Phillip said there wasn't any such place.

    What I am trying to say is that the universe is more complex than we will ever know. For instance, if Paul was called "up", which direction was the Earth pointed at the precise second that He was called?

    I think we have to look at the possibility of a more complex system than our minds could even imagine and we should also look at the possibility of alternate dimensions. With multiple dimensions a space can occupy another space and the two never collide. Or, at times, they can cross from one to the other.

    Demons can walk the Earth and not be seen unless they choose to step into a dimension that we physically inhabit. Hell, Paradise, and even heavens as we know them can and could possibly be the same way.

    I think we get wrapped up so much into having to match a physical system that we can see and touch that we forget that God is omnipotent and millions upon millions of interlinking dimensions are possible.

    The bottom line; however, is that we will obviously be taken care of, but I honestly don't think that we will understand any of the implications of "time, space, etc." until we have a new mind capable of seeing beyond our limited three and possibly four dimensions.

    As far as earthquakes being the result of physically ripping paradise from the Earth, no I don't buy that, but it doesn't mean I'm right.

    During our stay in Paradise are we still spirits? If so, we are obviously in another plane of existence. Will our new body be capable of existing in more than three or four dimensions? All, interesting thoughts to ponder.

    Just thinking aloud, Lacy.
     
  14. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------

    What I am trying to say is that the universe is more complex than we will ever know. For instance, if Paul was called "up", which direction was the Earth pointed at the precise second that He was called?
    --------------------------------------------------


    The word "up" isn't focusing upon direction dear christians. It is focusing upon WHERE. "Up" is referreing to Heaven. It is referring to heaven which is where God is, and to which is far above us, rather than Hell, which is a place far below God and us. The point is, that the he was called up to God and it was "in the spirit".


    --------------------------------------------------
    The bottom line; however, is that we will obviously be taken care of, but I honestly don't think that we will understand any of the implications of "time, space, etc." until we have a new mind capable of seeing beyond our limited three and possibly four dimensions.
    --------------------------------------------------


    But the point is, and the truth is, that Paradise is in Heaven where God is, no matter what anyone here tries to deflect from this truth by such nonsense such as the origional question of this thread. People are wresting with the scriptures, and this is very dangerous thing to do. Does it matter where we think Paradise is today? Absolutely it does as it is part of scriptural truth and has very much to do with the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and what he accomplished.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  15. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Since James is not a pastor, I'll asume that was directed toward me. What in the world does this have to do with the location of Paradise? This thread has nothing to do with Kingdom exclusion. Most Millenial Exclusionists believe Paradise is in Heaven now. Take a deep breath, read the thread topic, and try again.

    Lacy
    --------------------------------------------------

    Lacy, your origional post, and questions, is an attempt to prove your false belief (christians can and will go to hell to suffer punishment), and at the expense of scriptural truth and at the expense of what Jesus Christ our Lord accomplished. This is no better than the book "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" which is a philosophical look at God, rather than understanding God through scriptural truth. God has made it quite clear where Paradise was then, and where it is now, and there is no REASON for even asking this ridiculous question. You may like to play around in this manner with God's truth, but I for one do not. This is not something we should be approaching without fear. You are trying to introduce foriegn thoughts and beliefs to which are contrary to the scriptural truths. So, no, I will not as you put it: "Take a deep breath, read the thread topic, and try again". I will rather: contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints - at any and all cost.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  16. Lacy Evans

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    Thank you Phillip for your thoughtful comments.


    Thank you Michelle for getting back on the subject. What are your thoughts as to the question about David?

    Lacy

    PS. Michelle, you are a very mean person. You throw around hateful terms to everyone who disagrees with you. For your sake, I hope your "all-Christains-automatically-produce-only-good-fruit" doctrine is false. It hurts my feelings when you refer to my honest question as "nonsense". You need to be nice, sister.
     
  17. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    PS. Michelle, you are a very mean person. You throw around hateful terms to everyone who disagrees with you. For your sake, I hope your "all-Christains-automatically-produce-only-good-fruit" doctrine is false. It hurts my feelings when you refer to my honest question as "nonsense". You need to be nice, sister.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Lacy, I am really not trying to be mean, and I am very sorry you have taken it this way. But your question is nonsense, and it is very dangerous thing to be doing. If you as a saved person, who has studied the scriptures, and knows the truth of the gospel, should not on this very point, be confused on. This has been explained to you on other threads, and then you started this one. Now you desire me to believe that this was an attempt at an "honest" question? NO, brother. All it does is deny the scriptural truth, and regarding the work done by our Lord Jesus Christ, and this is why I have said to you what I have. You may think it mean, but in truth and reality, it is rather being done in love - even though you don't and will not see it that way.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  18. Lacy Evans

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    My Dear Sister,

    I said nothing about Christians going to Hell anywhere on this thread. As I have said before, Most Millenial Exclusionist agree with you as to the current location of Paradise so I don't know how questioning it could be construed as an attempt to defend the doctrine.

    It concerns me that you would judge my heart and my motives (Matt 7:1,2) for the asking "Paradise" question.

    You recklessly throw around the term "ridiculous" (Matt 5:22) You have displayed very little humility, never admitting when you are wrong. You have highjacked this thread. You continue to display fleshly carnal hateful behaviour. I'm sorry I disagree with you. I'm sorry I believe you are you are wrong. It is not personal.


    Lacy
     
  19. Lacy Evans

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    I'd hate to see you try to be mean. My question is a question that many theologians have wrestled with and debated. Just because you never considered it a questionable thing doesn't mean nobody else has either. That is prideful and presumptuous to believe that your point of view is the only possible one.

    YES Sister. Either that or go ahead and call me a liar right here publically and quit pussyfooting around.

    Pastor Lacy Evans, Harvest Baptist Church, LIAR! (So says Michelle?)
     
  20. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Thank you Michelle for getting back on the subject. What are your thoughts as to the question about David?
    --------------------------------------------------


    Did David go to Paradise? Did David look forward to Jesus Christ and the cross? Did the Lord take his saints with him from Paradise? Yes.


    Luke 2

    34. And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35. But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36. Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    37. Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
    38. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him
    .


    Luke 23

    39. And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
    40. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
    41. And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
    42. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


    2 Cor. 12

    2 Corinthians 12

    1. It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
    2. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
    4. How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    Ephesians 4

    1. I Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2. With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
    4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
    7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    8. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


    Revelation 19

    10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


    Was David the Messiah, who would ascend up to Heaven? NO. This was Paul's point to the Jews, that David did not, but Jesus Christ did. That David looked forward to Jesus Christ. This passage has NOTHING to do with where David currently is now. But we do Know, that if he was in Paradise, He is now in Heaven with the Lord, awaiting the first resurrection. Take a look at this:


    Revelation 6

    9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


    This altar is in HEAVEN, and these souls are there in Heaven WITH THE LORD, and not in HELL. These are saved people - tribulation saints, awaiting their resurrection during the tribulation period. They will recieve their bodies at the second coming of Christ, which is still part of the first resurrection, but takes place AFTER the rapture.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     

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