Featured Where is Spirit Baptism in the Bible?

Just remember that is your metaphor, your picture, your way of viewing the Christian life. It is pitiful.

But it is also something you have to work at, as you "work out your salvation." Though salvation is a free gift and all our sins have been redeemed, the Christian life was never promised to be an easy life. Book after book is like an instruction book on how to live, and how to live victoriously.
Our old man succumbs to temptation easily. Therefore:
1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Of course if we didn't have an old man we wouldn't need such promises and words of encouragement, would we?

Suppose there is just a new man. It would be absolutely redundant and useless for Paul to write:
Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.

Why does the new nature have to be warned "Not to give place to the devil"?
It doesn't make sense. You have an old nature which does give into the desires of the devil. Your new nature must be renewed in the spirit of your mind every day.
You must crucify that old man every day. Victorious Christian living depends on how much effort you are willing to crucify yourself as Jesus said--Take up your cross daily.
Paul said: "I die daily."
Put off the old man--do it daily.

The Lord wants you as a "living sacrifice.," (Rom.12:1)

 

No...what's pitiful is what little you care in how you handle God's word. :thumbs:

I will address this portion is one big chunk. It's taken me a while, but I've finally got you pegged. I now see where you're coming from, and what is causing you to illfully handle God's word.

Christians have had their "old man" crucified to Christ. Apostle Paul so poignantly stated it this way in Galatians 2:20...

with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me; (YLT)


And he also wrote this in Colossians 3:3.....

for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God; (YLT)


Then I will use the passage in Ephesians 4 that you used to prove just how wrong you really are....

"ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth." (vss 22-24 YLT)

We are to put off the "old man" and put on the "new man". That doesn't mean they are interchangeable. The only way we can do this is by "a renewing of the spirit of your mind". Now, are we able to do this on our own, or is this something that the Spirit of God must do for us? I affirm the latter. The only way we can exchange the old for the new is by the inward working(s) of the Spirit of God.


The "old man" was crucified, died and is no longer an influence....


this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin; (Romans 6:6 YLT)


I will close this post with a passage Colossians 3.....


"If, then, ye were raised with the Christ, the things above seek ye, where the Christ is, on the right hand of God seated, the things above mind ye, not the things upon the earth, for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God; when the Christ -- our life -- may be manifested, then also we with him shall be manifested in glory. Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry -- because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience, in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them; but now put off, even ye, the whole -- anger, wrath, malice, evil-speaking, filthy talking -- out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices, and having put on the new, which is renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him; where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman -- but the all and in all -- Christ. Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering, forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any one with any one may have a quarrel, as also the Christ did forgive you -- so also ye; and above all these things, [have] love, which is a bond of the perfection, and let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye were called in one body, and become thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord; and all, whatever ye may do in word or in work, [do] all things in the name of the Lord Jesus -- giving thanks to the God and Father, through him. (vss 1-17 YLT)


Your problem is that you fail to realize that we live in the flesh, not after the flesh. We sin, and do so in the flesh. But that doesn't mean we live fleshly. The battleground is within the mind, and as Brother Herald(Reformed) previously stated, that is why we need to have a renewing of the mind.


We live in the flesh, yes. But do we live after the flesh? No. That's why there's no such thing as a "carnal christian". We have acts of carnality, but that doesn't mean we live carnally.

We live in the world, but we're no longer of the world, we've been called out of the world. That's the same concept I just gave you.


"There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit; for the mind of the flesh [is] death, and the mind of the Spirit -- life and peace; because the mind of the flesh [is] enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself, for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God. And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ -- this one is not His; and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness, and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. (Romans 8:1-11 YLT)


We no longer live after the flesh, but after the Spirit, if so be He dwells within us.





^^^ That there sums it up nicley....

 

Spiritual union is a truth. Baptism in the Spirit is a truth. However, the error consists in wrongly confusing one truth with another. The matter is very simple. What is spiritual "separation"? It is spiritual death. How is that reversed? What is the opposite of "separation"? The opposite is "union." What is "spiritual union"? It is the union of the human spirit with the Spirit of God removing spiritual separation from God. What does that necessarily infer? It infers permanent indwelling of the Spirit of God within man's spirit OR ELSE THERE IS NO UNION BUT SEPARATION and spiritual separation IS spiritual death.

The second thing it necessarily implies is passing from spiritual death to spiritual life. Spiritual separation IS spiritual death. One cannot be spiritually alive and be separated spiritually from God. One cannot be spiritually dead and be in spiritual union with God. God IS life and God IS light and to be in spiritual union is to have both LIFE and LIGHT.

In the day that Adam sinned, that sin SEPARATED him spiritually from God. Those in Ephesians 2:1-3 had been SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God by sin.

Now, what is it that reverses spiritual death/separation and brings a person into spiritual union/life with God? Is it the baptism in the Spirit or is it quickening by the Spirit? What does the term "quickened" mean? It means to make alive. - "you who were DEAD....hath he QUICKENED (made alive) (Eph. 2:1,5). "Baptism" is NEVER used in Scripture to impart life or provide life or to bring something dead unto life - NEVER!

However, does being "quickened" (make alive) unite someone spiritually with God? Paul says it does! In Ephesians 1:5 he identifies the act of being quickened as being saved by grace:

Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;......5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

The Aorist tense "quickened" is further identified as the Perfect tense completed action event that continues as a completed action "by grace ye are saved." The words "are saved" is a periphrastic construction where the present tense linking verb is joined with the perfect tense verb. They had been quickened as a completed action at a particular point in time - thus "saved" and that completed action of quickened/saved continues to stand complete.

He has replaced "quickened" with "saved" making them interchangable expressions in this context and then continues to repeat this again in verse 8:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For by grace are ye quickened/saved. He then defines what source of origin it is derived from. It is not derived from self "not of yourselves." It is a "gift of God." It is not derived from your works "not of works lest any man should boast." It is the creative work of God that brings a person into union with Christ - "for we are his workmanship CREATED IN CHRIST Jesus unto good works..."

Simply put, it is QUICKENING by the Spirit of God that brings a believer into union with Christ. QUICKENING is a CREATIVE act of God. QUICKENING is "making alive" as there is no spiritual life OUTSIDE of Christ and quickening brings the believer into spiritual union/life with Christ and is the reverse of spiritual death/separation from Christ/God.

All saints from Genesis to Revelation have been quickened/born again and thus brought out of spiritual death/separation into spiritual union/life with God. This is a fundemental of God's salvation in all ages (Rom. 8:8-9) or else you are "none of his" and "in the flesh." Those in SPIRITUAL SEPARATION/DEATH cannot be one of His, as fellowship with God begins with spiritual union with God.

Since Genesis chapter 2:17 spiritual death/separation is due to sin, and since Genesis 3:15 restoration from spiritual death/separation unto spiritual life/union has been through the provision of the shed blood of the Lamb for all "of his" until this day. This means all his saints are in "spiritual union/life/light" with him by the creative act of quickening, which means they are indwelt (as union demands indwelling) and they are "in Christ Jesus" as quickening is having been "CREATED IN CHRIST"

In direct contrast, the baptism of the Spirit is a dated event for those ALREADY QUICKENED/CREATED IN CHRIST and those already WATER BAPTIZED were to "WAIT" to receive that gave them PUBLIC recognition as the new PUBLIC INSTITUTIONAL HOUSE OF GOD entrusted with the "keys of the kingdom" and New Covenant administration of the ordinances within the kingdom of God on earth. It is just that simple.

The Holy Spirit has always been "with" individual children of God in the sense of personal indwelling/union. The promise on Pentecost is the indwelling of a corporate public institutional house of God composed of water baptized living stones (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38; 40-41). The veil was rent in the Old institutional public house of God in Jerusalem and He took up residence in the new institutional public house of God in Acts 2. This indwelling was not for the purpose of salvation but for the New Covenant administration of the "keys of the kingdom" within the kingdom of God on earth. The temporal signs of this baptism were signs wonders and miracles completed in the finishing of the New Testament Scriptures, but the enduring evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit is "the pillar and ground of the truth" where the gospel and gospel ordinances are preserved through a qualified public ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-15).

 

1. None can reasonably or rationally deny that there is an INTERNAL state of conflict within Paul and that is clearly expressed in Romans 7:15-25:

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


2. Whether you view him lost or saved there is clearly a schizophrenic condition being described in these verses (1) Two opposing INTERNAL laws - vv. 22-23, 25; (2) Two opposing aspects of His being - "my flesh...body...members" versus "inward man.....man"


3. No one can deny that Romans 7:7-12 is being described in PAST TENSE VERBS whereas Romans 7:14-25 is being described in PRESENT TENSE VERBS.

4. No one can deny that Paul is specifically identifying the source of evil within himself to be "the law of sin" which "dwells in me" and that precise location is "my flesh...this body....my members" whereas the source of good within himself is "the law of God after the inward man.....the mind."

5. No one can deny that the physical body of the believer continues to be subject to death, thus under sin, thus not yet redeemed from sin or else 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 is meaningless:

1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Neither that "when" or "then" has yet occurred, so in regard to "this body of death" it is still "sold under sin" and there is nothing good "that is in my flesh" as corruption still dominates it and incorruption has not yet been "put on."


6. No one can claim that the "carnal" (Gr. sarkos = FLESHLY) mind described in Romans 8:7 "delights in the law of God" or that such a mind can "serve" God as described in Romans 7:21,25, because Paul explicitly states the mind dominated by the flesh is "at enmity with God and is NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD, and NEITHER INDEED CAN BE."

7. No one can deny that it is the child of God who is commanded to put to death the flesh and Paul uses PRESENT TENSES to describe this act by those indwelt with the Spirit of God.

Rom. 8:13 For if ye live [present tense] after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify [present tense] the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1Co 9:27 But I keep [present tense] under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The words "put on" and "put off" in regard to the old man and the new man are all found in the IMPERATIVE MODE as commands. The Aorist tense shows they can be done as a puntilliar action rather than a continuous action. To argue the Aorist means they have already done this makes Paul the fool for using the imperative mode to command them to do something already done. Lost people cannot put on the new man, nor can they "put off" the old man. Only the child of God can "put on" and "put off" and thus only the child of God can obey this command. However, those who argue such has ALREADY BEEN DONE so, have Paul not only wasting his time, as he is directing this to saved persons, but making a redundant unnecessary command because according to them it is already done and cannot be repeated. Such is the kind of nonsense necessary to avoid the obvious truth of these passages.

These Seven things are irrefutable IF common sense and sound exegetical principles of interpretation are abided by. The lesson in Romans 7:14-25 is that the saved man does not have the will POWER (v. 18 "to will is present, but HOW to perform I find not") to win this inner conflict with indwelling law of sin. The lesson in Romans 8:9-27 is that this power comes from dependence upon the power of the Indwelling Spirit of God - therefore if we "live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" - Gal. 5:25 or "As ye have received the Lord Jesus Christ, so walk ye in him." - Col. 2:6.

Common sense should tell you that you can choose as a child of God to live without dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit! It is possible, and not only possible, but for many this is their primary expereince. To move more toward a life characterized by dependence is called spiritual GROWTH. Hence, spiritual growth is developing the characteristic habit of depending on God more and more. So we can "put on" and we can "put off" as that is part of spiritual growth, but how often and characteristic we do so determines are progress in spiritual maturity (infant, young man, father).

 

We have POSITIONALLY died with Christ and are LEGALLY dead to the Law and dead to sin (Rom. 7:1-5).

However, if you think you have done so PERSONALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY you are only living in a fools paradise, Because -

1. 1 Cor. 15:56 explicitly denies that YOUR BODY has been freed from sin experientially or personally and won't be until "then" at the resurrection.

2. 1 Jn. 1:8-10 explicitly denies that any true child of God is free PERSONALLY or EXPERIENTIALLY from the presence or power of sin.

3. The IMPERATIVE commands to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man" are frivilous and wasted breath if that has already been done and the Christians he is addressing cannot repeat this. To command them to do such when it is already a done deal is pure folly and a waste of language.

Hate to wake you up from your fantasy world, but LITERALLY and EXPERIENTIALLY you are not in heaven, nor is your personal life in heaven, but you are on earth and you are living a life on earth. The life hid in Christ in heaven is a SINLESS life because sin cannot enter heaven BUT YOUR LIFE IS NOT SINLESS is it? He is speaking again of our POSITION in Christ rather than of our own person.

Of course they are not "interchangable" as they are distinctly OPPOSITE to each other and that is why one is to be "put off" and the other is to be "put on." Your intepretation makes a complete fool of Paul for using the imperative mode - the mode of command - when you interpret it as something no Christian can do, because according to your logic it is already a done deal as soon as one is born again. Hence, he is wasting his breath commanding already born again persons to do what has already been done. That is the nonsense of your interpretation.

Ah! here you admit it is something you "can do" PRESENT TENSE. Of course the only way it can be done is by the power of the Spirit as that is the whole point of Romans 7:18 and the words "to WILL IS PRESENT with me but HOW to PERFORM I find not" when looking toward self. However, in Romans 8:12 it is the Spirit indwelt Christian that is commanded in THE PRESENT TENSE "to mortify" the flesh!!! According to you that was already finished, a past tense reality that took place on the cross in spiritual union with Christ! Positionally - yes - personally and experientially - NO!

POSITIONALLY - yes, but personally and experientially???? NO! If that were the case then Paul would be a complete fool to use the imperative command over and over again when addressed SAVED PERSONS commanding them to do what already has been done, finished and cannot be repeated.

You simply fail to distinguish between things that differ. You are confusing your LEGAL position with your PERSONAL condition. You are confusing the sinless condition of your born again "spirit" with you sinful condition of your body and soul. Ask yourself this question. What is exactly about YOU that has been born of God? Was it your body? Do you have a brand new body? Has your body been "created in Christ Jesus" and now it is without the corrupting principle of sin? Is your body immortal and has eternal life and shall never die? Of course not! Hence, your WHOLE PERSON is not the object the new birth. Is it your soul? That self-conscious aspect of your immaterial being (intellect, will and emotions)? The Bible says what has been born of God is your "spirit" (Jn. 3:6). The Bible says what is born of God sinneth not because the "seed" of God abideth in what has been born of God. God has cleansed (Tit. 3:5 - washing and regeneration) a sanctuary in man for His Spirit to dwell and it is not the body or the soul but the "spirit" of man and it is created in "righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) where the image of God has been fully restored. Thus "His Spirit bears witness with our spirit" that we are the sons of God. Your soul is the battle zone between the unredeemed flesh - "this body of death" where the law of sin dwells and the "inward man" that the "I" of the soul delights in the law of God with, but is without power of will to "put on" in his life (Rom. 7:18). Hence, one must walk in Christ as they received Christ (Col. 2:6). One must "also" walk in/by the Spirit as they "live in the Spirt" - Gal. 5:25. The progress of growth in developing a more consistent habit is the definition of spiritual growth.

The only "spiritual union" is inside you where the Holy Spirit is in union with your spirit and imparts the righteousness of Christ to the new created inward man, that is created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and thus already in the "image of God" as glorified as it will ever be. However, it is that "image" one must "put on" in the mind, heart, and will through the power of the Holy Spirit so that it can be expressed through your body in the form of words and deeds.

 

The Holy Spirit has always been "with" individual children of God in the sense of personal indwelling/union. The promise on Pentecost is the indwelling of a corporate public institutional house of God composed of water baptized living stones (Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38; 40-41). The veil was rent in the Old institutional public house of God in Jerusalem and He took up residence in the new institutional public house of God in Acts 2. This indwelling was not for the purpose of salvation but for the New Covenant administration of the "keys of the kingdom" within the kingdom of God on earth. The temporal signs of this baptism were signs wonders and miracles completed in the finishing of the New Testament Scriptures, but the enduring evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit is "the pillar and ground of the truth" where the gospel and gospel ordinances are preserved through a qualified public ministry (1 Tim. 3:1-15). It was given a new commission to "the world" ("all nations" "uttermost parts of the earth" "gentiles") as the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost also introduced His work among the Gentiles on a far broader scale than previously through the Old Covenant administrative House of God. For the first time, gentiles would be brought into this new institutional house of God on an equal level with Jews. In the former institutional house of God there was an "outer court" for gentile believers. Christ has removed this wall of separation in the New Covenant public administrative house of God. Salvation has always been equal but not service in the institutional house of God has not been equal. Now in the New Covenant administrative house of God salvation and service are equal (Eph. 2;11-21).

 

I am very familiar with the history of the "Landmark" movement, not by indirect sources, but by reading original sources for myself. I have examined most of the original sources first hand. This "Campbellite" theory is not new, and it has been repudiated by those more familiar with the original sources as it should be repudiated as it is a complete distortion by mixing facts with fancy. This is not to say that Campbellism had no influence in driving this movement, but it is certainly not its cause nor does the principles embraced by this movement originate in the 1800's but can be found much earlier among Baptists in America and England.

Any unbiased reader of the original sources knows this movement was not a response to Alexander Campbell but rather a more direct response to pulpit affiliations with PEDOBAPTISTS and alien immersion from PEDOBAPTISTS that was gaining acceptance among many Baptists. Look at the debates by J.R. Graves with Methodists. Look at Pendleton's book "Resetting an Old Landmark."

Another equally false notion was that the "Landmark" principles were brand new and originated with J.R. Graves, but anyone who has studied early American and British Baptists can see the very same principles in earlier writings. Indeed, Graves quotes from many Baptists before him. In 1644-1680 in England, articles on church perpetuity had already been written. Open communion Baptists were being condemned. Open communion then stood for a mixed membership of immersed and sprinkled/poured members as in the case of John Bunyan and his congregation. Probably this "mixed membership" was the precursor to "open" communion at the Lord's table among Baptists.

However, this "Campbellite" origin theory is pure speculation without a "smoking gun" or shred of factual evidence. It is like the doctrines of Grace being attributed to Calvin or Augustine. There were many prior to Graves who believed in church Perpetuity, baptismal perpetuity, doctrinal perpetuity, etc. (Waldenses, Anabaptists, early English Baptists, etc.).

Here is an opposing article that deal with the historical antecedents of Landmarkism - http://landmarkism.tripod.com/chapter.1.resume.html

 

First consider the context:
Paul was rebuking Peter for his association with the Jews and his hypocrisy in doing so:
Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
--He withdrew from the Gentiles with whom he was eating and joined himself with the circumcision associating himself with some of these Judaizers and legalists. The subject here is grace vs. the law.
Now, after Paul's explanation of all of this leading up to verse 20, look at verse 21:

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
--The context is in contrast to the law of God.

Consider how Vine, from Vine's Word Studies explains this passage:

And he also wrote this in Colossians 3:3.....

for ye did die, and your life hath been hid with the Christ in God; (YLT)

Then I will use the passage in Ephesians 4 that you used to prove just how wrong you really are....

"ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth." (vss 22-24 YLT)

We are to put off the "old man" and put on the "new man". That doesn't mean they are interchangeable. The only way we can do this is by "a renewing of the spirit of your mind". Now, are we able to do this on our own, or is this something that the Spirit of God must do for us? I affirm the latter. The only way we can exchange the old for the new is by the inward working(s) of the Spirit of God.[/quote]
You must renew your mind daily.
As you must renew your mind daily you must put off the old man daily. This is the gist of Eph.4. All these commands are to be done on a daily basis. "Let no corrupt communication come out of your mouth," is not a one time command to be obeyed just one time in your life. Neither is "put off the old man."
Why did Paul say "I die daily," (1Cor.15:31)?
Why did Jesus say "Take up your cross daily" (Luke 9:23)?
They are daily actions. Why? Because the old man must be put to death every day. "It is sin that dwelleth in me," Paul said, referring to the sin nature, the old man or nature.

In principle he did, not in practice. You don't live a perfect and sinless life do you?

These are principles, ideals. Paul uses the first and second person plural when he states these principles and ideals. As previously stated they are legal positions.
To give a better example look in chapter 5:3
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
--That is the principle, the ideal.
I am sorry but that principle has not always worked in my life. I have not always "gloried" or "rejoiced" in all my tribulations. I can think of many tribulations where I haven't. Perhaps I should have. But I haven't. Paul states a principle that we need to work toward where we come to the place where we are able to rejoice in all our tribulations.
If you were in Nigeria, and your daughter was kidnapped by the Boko Haram, could you rejoice in that, knowing full well that she would probably be raped by those Muslims that kidnapped her?
We glory or rejoice in our tribulations. Hard isn't it?

Thus in the very next chapter he says in verse two:
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
--We are dead to sin. No not practically. It is positionally, or ideally. It is something we have to work toward, just like Romans 5:3, and then in the rest of chapter 6 he tells us how.
Reckon is a command (verse 11)
So is "submit," "yield," etc. Those are the verbs and commands used in the rest of the chapter showing us how to be dead to sin. It is a daily practice.

 

Observe the commands. Put on bowels of mercies, kindness, etc.
Christ has not done those things for you. You have to practice these things on a daily practice. Why? Because your old nature is not always crucified, but you must on a daily basis crucify it that you might be able to show in your life the fruit of the Spirit. If you don't crucify your old nature you will never be able to live the "resurrected life," that Christ wants you to live.

I agree. The battle is in the mind. Look at what Paul said:
2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
--Have you submitted every thought and imagination to the obedience of Jesus Christ? The battle is in the mind! You can only conquer that battle through the power of Christ as you conquer your carnal nature.

If you commit one sin you are a sinner.
If you murder once you are a murderer.
If you act carnally you are a carnal Christian.
You cannot deny the scriptural truths of 1Cor.3:1-5 just because your philosophy tells you different.

Not all Christians life a separated life. There was a reason why Paul wrote
2Cor.6:14-18; why he said:
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
--They were not sanctified, but they were believers.

And what happens at those times when you do walk according to the lusts of your flesh? Please don't tell me that you never do. Take heed carefully to the admonitions given in 1John 1:8,10.

 

The quicker you understand God's sovereignity and man's responsibilty, the quicker you'll understand our...Brothers Iconoclast, Reformed, and myself....position.....

 

God's sovereignty doesn't do away with human responsibility.
Salvation doesn't negate the depravity of man.
There are some new and novel doctrines being set forth on this board by what others refer to as the "new Calvinists." They are doctrines outside of not only orthodox Christianity, but never heard before within the confines of Calvinism.
You won't find the eradication of the old nature preached by John Calvin himself.
Historically these doctrines belonged to the holiness movement.

 

Romans 7:14 by John Calvin
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Even Calvin taught that depravity extended to believers; that we still maintain a corrupt nature; an old nature or old man. It is not eradicated. It lives with the new man and does battle with the new man every day. Romans 7:14-25 is Paul's testimony as a saved man describing the battle of the old nature with the new nature.
Even Calvin agrees with this interpretation, as do all older commentaries.

This new point of view being put forth by some on the board is a denial of the depravity of man. It is unorthodox in nature.

 

DHK

Nice try DHK...But lets see if you misunderstand Calvin,as you misunderstand those here who try and help you....

Seeing you have this new love for Calvin and His commentaries...especially that it excited you when he wrote the word carnal in romans 7:14...:laugh:

I will share some more Calvin for you. Lo and behold calvin has come along on this road trip with me...and when I investigate your cherry picking and trying to make it seem as if he says one thing, when in reality he says the opposite:laugh: You quoted a bit from chapter 7....but chapter 6 comes before chapter 7...lets see now;

For I do not agree with those who think that he used the word
crucified, rather than dead, because he still lives, and is in some respects
vigorous. It is indeed a correct sentiment, but not suitable to this passage.
opps...he should have checked with you first I guess:laugh:

man left to himself,left to his own nature...ie, before he is saved


He points out the end for which this destruction is effected, when he says,
so that we may no longer serve sin. It hence follows, that as long as we are
children of Adam, and nothing more than men, we are in bondage to sin,
that we can do nothing else but sin;

OH no DHK...he is not following your script....get some whiteout and correct him,lol...tell him about your carnal Christian theory which is the only new and unorthodox teaching being promulgated around here....by you.

 

1. You will have to clean up your post Icon. I have no idea what you are posting, that is, what posts refer to what verses. It doesn't make sense to me.
2. You are avoiding what I have already posted. Quit playing around like a J.W. Jump here; jump there. I provided commentary on the text. Deal with it.
3. The reason you won't deal with the portion I already posted is that it destroys what you believe. I am not going to go through an entire commentary by Calvin.

 

Nah...DHK...he just set your strawman on fire.......

 

DHK

.

A painting that is only 1/4 done sometimes does not seem to make sense, but as it takes form it makes a lot more sense..

I enjoy delving onto these issues and exposing error. providing context as you claim to do every other post, does not hurt the issue, but bring clarity.

You see what is coming don't you :laugh: I am getting directly to that portion you posted as I said.....let's see if others share your view that I am jumping around like a JW....or if it turns out to be you ...misrepresenting the view:thumbs:



:wavey: I am just giving the context of calvins comments that you were very quick to post,,,but in reality they are saying the opposite of what you think they were teaching....

No one says you have to read what I am posting DHK...I am posting for those who have the time to take a closer look at the issue....

It was you who posted this correct????

and this;

This is part of your agenda being exposed...you posted these charges correct, now...it is being responded to.
stay tuned....

 

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

:laugh:
I'll just answer this post for both of you.
Don't you find it ironic, that I, a non-Cal, am refuting your position through the use of Calvin himself. I am not going through the book of Calvin, taking Icon's bait, etc. I don't agree with Calvinism in the first place.
At least on this point he is right; I agree, and you are wrong. Calvin himself proves you wrong. I am using Calvin's writngs to prove you wrong yet I am not the one that is a Calvinist.

Explain Rom.7:14,24 in the light of Calvin's commentary.
There is no strawman here. You need not resort to your default position.

 

DHK


Romans 7:14 by John Calvin
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
He starts with this:

14. For we know that the law, etc. He now begins more closely to compare
the law with what man is, that it may be more clearly understood whence
the evil of death proceeds. He then sets before us an example in a
regenerate man, in whom the remnants of the flesh are wholly contrary to
the law of the Lord, while the spirit would gladly obey it.

The whole discussion is about the law of God since chapter 5, and he is showing how we have a new relationship to the law as believers.

Notice....
But first, as we have said, he makes only a comparison between nature and the law. Since in human things there is no greater discord than between spirit and flesh,
the law being spiritual and man carnal, what agreement can there be
between the natural man and the law?

He is going to explain how Christians mortify remaining sin and corruption, he will get to that.....notice however...He says..BUT ...First!!!

he pauses to comment and contrast what a natural mans condition is before the Holy law of God.

Seems as if you left this out in your zeal to associate Calvin with your view being vs 14 uses the word carnal..:laugh: maybe you thought no one would check on this....do not worry DHK...we have your back:thumbs:

he continues;
Since
in human things there is no greater discord than between spirit and flesh,the law being spiritual and man carnal, what agreement can there be
between the natural man and the law? Even the same as between darkness
and light.

But by calling the law spiritual, he not only means, as some
expound the passage, that it requires the inward affections of the heart; but
that, by way of contrast, it has a contrary import to the word carnal.

he continues;
and it has been in fact
already shown, that under the term flesh is included whatever men bring
from the womb; and flesh is what men are called, as they are born,

and as long as they retain their natural character;
for as they are corrupt, so they
neither taste nor desire anything but what is gross and earthly.
AS LONG AS THEY RETAIN THEIR NATURAL CHARACTER....DID YOU NOTICE THIS?

Spirit, on the contrary, is renewed nature, which God forms anew after his own image. And this mode of speaking is adopted on this account — because
the newness which is wrought in us is the gift of the Spirit.

Looks different now doesn't it?

There is then this difference between them and the faithful — that they are
never so blinded and hardened, but that when they are reminded of their
crimes, they condemn them in their own conscience; for knowledge is not
so utterly extinguished in them, but that they still retain the difference
between right and wrong; and sometimes they are shaken with such dread
under a sense of their sin, that they bear a kind of condemnation even in
this life: nevertheless they approve of sin with all their heart, and hence
give themselves up to it without any feeling of genuine repugnance; for
those stings of conscience, by which they are harassed, proceed from
opposition in the judgment, rather than from any contrary inclination in
the will.

The godly, on the other hand, in whom the regeneration of God is
begun, are so divided, that with the chief desire of the heart they aspire to
God, seek celestial righteousness, hate sin, and yet they are drawn down to
the earth by the relics of their flesh: and thus, while pulled in two ways,
they fight against their own nature, and nature fights against them; and
they condemn their sins, not only as being constrained by the judgment of
reason, but because they really in their hearts abominate them, and on their
account loathe themselves. This is the Christian conflict between the flesh
and the spirit of which Paul speaks in <480517>Galatians 5:17.


It has therefore been justly said, that the carnal man runs headlong into sin
with the approbation and consent of the whole soul; but that a division
then immediately begins for the first time, when he is called by the Lord
and renewed by the Spirit. For regeneration only begins in this life; the
relics of the flesh which remain, always follow their own corrupt
propensities, and thus carry on a contest against the Spirit.



it will go to part3....