Where is the church?

I haven't mentioned the RCC or its claims. I'm simply trying to learn
the non-Catholic answer to the questions. If, as you seem to imply,
it doesn't matter which church one attends, then by implication every
single one of the doctrines on which any churches disagree (i.e. 99% of
the teaching of any church) don't matter. Is that your position?

Jesus never depicted between churches, for if he had, he'd have had to
name one in the beginning.....which he did not do. The members of the RCC
have the same avenue of salvation available to them as any other beiever;
which is "He who has the Son has life". The opposite of that would seem
to be as the last half of that verse says "he who does not have the Son
does not have life". Those are the two choices MikeS.

The question should be "How does one receive the Son" and not
"What church do you attend".

Having or not having the Son is the determination of life.......not being
a member of a particular church"

All the quibblings of the RCC could be put to rest if they'd just accept that
truth.

 

I'm sorry that you used to be a "deluded" IFB member rather than a regular IFB member, but why would you react so overboard by joining the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholics, Christadelphians, or another such cult or cult-like institution? Isn't that throwing out the baby with the bath water?

Paul disciplined local churches because he was an apostle, and like the twelve, he died without successor.

Catholics have a real problem, because if only one denomination within the church is the real one, they missed the boat by a nautical mile. It is so far from the apostolic faith as revealed in the Word that the apostles wouldn't have come close to recognizing it in its apostasy.

However, you're partly right about the testimony of baptism; while it is a gross abuse of the ordinance to administer it to unbelievers like infants when it can only be done following the recipient's repentance, and cannot be (like you and the Mormons assert) administered by proxy, it isn't immersion. The only mode of baptism found in Scripture is affusion/aspersion.

Your quote and explanation sure don't make you sound like a Catholic convert, however; you sound like you're describing Orthodox deification.

 

But there are dozens of "local churches" where I live, and they all teach different doctrines. Let's assume there are 50 local churches near me, each having some doctrinal differences with all the others. At least 49 of them must be teaching error, right? Maybe all 50! So how can I find the church which teaches all truth and no error? </font>[/QUOTE]Well, first of all, stay away from all pseudo-Christian cults like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism. Here are 9 marks of a cult to use as a general guide; any 4 of them is usually sufficient to identify a cult, and all 9 makes it certain:

1. Extrabiblical Authority: Cults have shifted their theological point of authority away from God's full and final written Word, the Bible, to their own unique, self-promoting opinions about the Bible.

2. Works Salvation/Legalism: Cults teach that eternal life depends upon something other than the Atonement; i.e., faith in the atoning, finished work of Christ on the cross is deemed not to be sufficient (usually replaced with human works and human responsibility). Rather than relying on the grace of God alone for salvation, the salvation message of the cults always boils down to required obedience to, or abstention from, certain obligations and practices (some even including obedience to the Old Testament law).

3. No Assurance of Salvation: The issue of a cult member's salvation is never settled, but is constantly affected by the changing circumstances of life; in this way, cult leaders are able to produce continued obligation and spiritual bondage, rather than spiritual freedom. A cult member cannot be 100% certain of going to heaven immediately upon death.

4. Guru-Type Leader/Modern Prophet: The cult leader is looked to as the infallible interpreter of Scripture.

5. Exclusivity from/Denunciation of Other Groups: Each cult group, regardless of what other doctrines are taught, will all have this one common idea -- "The Only True Church Syndrome." The members of each specific organization have been taught that their church, organization, or community, is the only true group and that all other groups are false.

6. Claims of Special Discoveries/Additional Revelation: Acceptance of new, contemporary, continual revelations that either deny the Bible or are allowed to explain it. The fundamental characteristic of Christianity is that it is historical, not dependent upon private knowledge and secret, unconfirmable relationships, while the almost universal basis of cult religion is the claimed exclusive revelation that one person has supposedly received--the proclamation of new dogmas.

7. Out-Of-Context Scripture Use as Proof-Texts/Segmented Biblical Attention: Cults tend to focus on one verse or passage of the Bible to the exclusion of others, and without regard for the context in which Scripture is given (e.g., 1 Cor. 15:29 used by Mormons to justify baptism for the dead or taking clear metaphors as literal langauge and vice versa). In addition, cults have made an art form out of using Christian terminology, all the while pouring out their own meanings into the words.

8. Erroneous Doctrines Concerning Life After Death and Retribution: Covering the gamut from soul sleep to annihilationism to purgatory to universalism to the progression to godhood.

9. Entangling Organization Structure: The less truth a movement represents, the more highly it seems to have to organize itself; the absence of truth seems to make this necessary.

 

Mike,

To say that Jesus brought a 99% "Hard to Understand" faith would be wrong. The
gospel is simple....simple enough for a child to understand, yet many churches would
impose the death penalty of the "Hard to Understand" upon us. Catholicism is on top
of the heap in this department. I was brought up in another one that was just as
strong in a different direction. This appealing that is going on to make one's church
better than any other, more correct, historically correct, started by Jesus, mentioned
in the bible etc does nothing to enhance the gospel .....it only propogates the church
that is doing the soliciting.

If finding the 'right church' is my goal, then I could well
do that without Jesus Christ in mind. I'd just follow someone's suggestion as to which
church that might be. If I'd ask 300 people, I'd probably get 300 different answers.

If salvation was my goal, then the topic of "what church do I attend" should not be
important. Salvation can come without the help of a deacon, layperson, priest or
minister.

You're right that 99 % of our quibblings are over unimportant issues. We should
concentrate on "Whosoever has the Son has life". Nowhere will we find in the bible
that "receiving and having the Son" is subject to our conjunction with a church.

That would go to say that God can't save people without a church's interference.
Then we'd be back to.....which church is right and all the evils that present themselves
when that topic arises.

Consider me lucky for not having a church....or at least lucky not to have the confines
and limitational thinking that goes with those who depend on their church for their
ticket to heaven.

You know who's the most guilty of that don't you ?

 

You see the faith as a small golden nugget, and that every denomination
possesses the the full truth of that nugget. I see the faith as an
entire universe, forever unravelling its beauty and truth before us (much
like the physical world), and that there can only be one organization that
is given the full truth of this universe, with others
missing more or less of this full truth

I guess we have to realize just where faith starts from in the first place.
Isn't it the seed planted by God in the heart of every individual and the
responsibility to nuture it is ours? I don't see how a person can take a
spiritual concept that is generated by a spiritual God to be used within
our spiritual existance for a spiritual outcome and then relate it to a physical
entity ( a church). Worse yet, to think that only one physical church could
be in receipt and control of all of those spiritual confrontations. Spirit (God)
existed before "one organization" evolved on the earth scene. God created
man AND the various agencies that worship Him. How can the
elements of an organization own and direct the leadership? That's how I see
the "one organization" and the wrongs it proposes.

Where you see limitation and confines, I see truths beyond limit,
enough to contemplate for this life and far beyond. And I see an
inerrant guide and teacher, created by Christ and animated by the
Holy Spirit, to help lead me and anyone who seeks into all truth.

We are taught to seek the giver of gifts and not the gift; seek the author,
not the book. There is no loss of integrity to take our spiritual woes and
cares directly unto the author of spirituality Himself. Someone may have
told you that there is a better "inerrant guide and teacher", but the
directives did not come from Jesus who Himself said "No oneshall come
unto the Father but by me". It doesn't get any better than that, Mike.

I also see bondage and deception along with the confines of trusting in a
system that would intend to build upon a foundation that doesn't need
tampered with. For that reason I left the longstanding confines of the system
I was born into (2x2) and can see the similarities within prideful churches
that gives me the shudders just thinking about it.

Let's "tingle" at the leading of the Holy Spirit that knows no confines of any
man-made system that purposes to water down the free flowing spirit that is
actually available to "whosoever will" in the fulness of truth.

Now THAT gives me the tingles !!!

 

But there are dozens of "local churches" where I live, and they all teach different doctrines. Let's assume there are 50 local churches near me, each having some doctrinal differences with all the others. At least 49 of them must be teaching error, right? Maybe all 50! So how can I find the church which teaches all truth and no error? </font>[/QUOTE]First, pray that God would give you guidance.
Second, find a church that believes God's word is true, infallible, inerrant, perfect for us today. That most likely would probably be a independent, fundamental, King James Bible believing Baptist church.

BTW, all churches have error because all churches are made up with sinners.

 

(Mike)
So how can I find the church which
teaches all truth and no error?

(Singer)
As a young man, I felt that someday I would find the right church
and join it. I've had many many people of various sects tell me that
they found the "right church" and that God was "dealing with my heart"
to join it also. My search ended when I felt the pull of God on my heart
and confessed Him...believing in the man Jesus Christ.

That was the end of my search.

It is not in a church.

Singer

 

Christ left no book, He left a living Church!

Christ did not leave a living church with the name that you suppose.
He offered Himself and he left the legacy of faith through which all
eternal gain comes.


Ah, but the Church is not a physical entity, but a supernatural organism,
the Mystical Body of Christ, animated by the Holy Spirit. Christ and the
Church are one, and the head and the body are one.

Head and body does not depict a denomination. I could suppose my
dog to be the supernatural organism of my farmyard, but of course that's
only in my head and with no gain to either me or the farmyard, but it sure
elevates the dog...!!

 

The right answer is here:

http://www.letusreason.org/Cult12.htm

Seek truth.

 

The last paragraph of that article sums up our concerns:

"In conclusion there is one true Church, but it is not found in a certain
denomination or group by itself. Those who claim you must join their
group or Church to be right with God, only prove they do not understand what
the word Church or body of Christ means. It is not exclusive but inclusive,
as it is found in the heart of all those who have accepted the true Jesus, and
have come to God the way he has provided, and hold to the essentials of the
faith. Whether one is Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian,
Charismatic, or Pentecostal, etc. The Church transcends denominational barriers,
it exists within denominations, as well as outside of them. This is the Universal
Church that has continued from the beginning of Pentecost. While denominations
may have differences on peripheral issues, they do hold to the core beliefs that
would make them part of the body of Christ. "

 

Look at the name of this thread. I've been asking where to find the church which Christ left. Surely if Christ left a church I should be able to find it! If you think I suppose wrongly, then tell me the right answer. </font>[/QUOTE]MikeS, to find the church one must find Jesus, believe in Jesus, accept Jesus as personal savior, confess and repent from sins, and bear the fruit of such belief and faith in Christ. One who does this is part of the Christ's church regardless of denominational congregation attended.

There is no name for the True Church accept "the Bride of Christ", the collective of believers who are so devoted to the Christ as to give up their own Individuality and Identity and to become the bride in marriage with the Christ. One cannot continue to be "self" and be Christ's Bride any more than a woman, or man, can retain self and enter marriage and expect it to last...the two must become one for the marriage to be true. Jesus cannot change for He is God, so we humans who want a marriage relationship with Jesus must change to conform to Him as a bride conforms to the groom. This is not a sexist approach, but simply an explanation of what must transpire and the example that God gave us to which we must conform. That by the way is the reason for the attack against marriage by the homosexual community. Destroy the marriage example, and you destroy the "bride of Christ" to which all who are saved must conform.

 

See Rev 12 for a description of what has happened to the church since Christ was raised from the dead. Notice that like Romans 11 - the description of Rev 12 starts with the "ONE TRUE Church" of God - started at Sinai - the one that gives birth to Christ.

Notice also that Rev 12 shows that AFTER the cross - it is STILL composed "of the SAINTS" and notice also that the persecution of the church is most intense (according to Rev 12) After the cross -

Notice that in Acts 15 the Post-Cross church is headquartered in Jerusalem!! Notice that James is presiding.

Notice that all the Church apostles CONTINUE to be Jews in the first century. Notice that the NT church "scripture" is in fact - the OT.

Notice that it is ONE body - ONE church - in all ages.

Even in today's fractured denominations brought on by the RCC itself - (Catholic division - gave rise to protestantism) - the body of Christ is composed of christians in every group that have accepted Christ as their savior.

In Christ

Bob

 

Even in today's fractured denominations brought on by the RCC itself
- (Catholic division - gave rise to protestantism) - the body of Christ is
composed of christians in every group that have accepted Christ as their savior.

Bob, that's a good observation (that division within the Catholic Church
gave rise to protestantism itself). If one looks upon that fact in conjunction with
the RCC claim that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, then it is
fact that the gates of Hell have ALREADY prevailed against it.

But then........I for one do not believe that the promise of "the gates of hell
shall not prevail etc." was aimed at the Catholic Church anyhow. It is a far
stretch of the imagination to couple that quote with Catholicism. Makes me
wonder how anyone could take the verses related to "Whosoever believes
in Me" and claim that the Belief means to believe in the various doctrines
of Catholicism. Yet it does not stop there as my 2x2 upbringing had also
adopted their own standards to the same verses.

It makes much more sense to consider the ''one true church'' in light of your
description.

 

So......

Poor old weak, helpless Jesus....

Left a Church here on earth, left some men in charge of it and couldn't keep them and their disciples from running headlong into apostasy before the end of the first century....

right?

Sorry.....

Not the God I worship. He promised to keep His Church and He has done just that through out the ages. And despite the fact that the Church is in considerably poor shape today due to mismanagement, scandals, Vatican II reforms, and other purly HUMAN ELEMENTS, Her doctrines line up with the covenantal nature of God, She is the continuation and replacement of the Jewish religion as the administrators of the Kingdom of God on earth (Matt. 21: 33 - 46), and all who wish salvation shall be saved by entering into Her, even those who think they have nothing to do with Her, for baptism, which enters a man into the kingdom, belongs to Her and makes one a part of Her, even if one refuses to recognize such.

As fer my attitude, Helen, all I can say is that I wish I had met a Catholic with some backbone, attitude and theological knowledge 25 years ago. If I had, I would have been in the Church a long time earlier and would have not gone through all the misery that being a member of an IFB assembly, and then a Calvinist assembly, put me through.

There is real freedom in being part of the Lord's one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

 

.........poor ole weak, helpless CC; depending on an Organization !