Where is the Peaceful and Tolerant Islamic State?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Will, Oct 23, 2001.

  1. Will

    Will
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    We are told constantly in the media that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion (just like Christianity) and that the terrorists are extremists that are not following the Quaran.

    If this is true, where does a peaceful and tolerant Islamic state exist? Where has it ever existed? They have ruled countries well over a millenium. Which one can we point to as being peaceful and tolerant? Which one has to turn away immigrants?

    Anyone who contends Islam is peaceful and tolerant should either point out the example of a peaceful and tolerant Islamic state or be quiet.

    Also, anyone who thinks that Arab Americans don't support our nation's Middle East policies doesn't know very many. It's Islamic Americans that have a problem with those policies. Many Arab Americans (my wife included) are Christians and their families have been for hundreds of years. They are in this country because of persecution and torture in those tolerant peaceful Islamic countries.

    In the 20th century when the Jewish people started moving back to Israel, the Islamic government (in a rage) in what is now Iraq, sent armed troops to the Christian villages. They tied the men and boys together asking them if they wanted to convert. If not, they machine gunned them into a ditch, which they did to my wife's grandfather. He acted dead and was able to escape in the night wounded and naked. Their tribe (which was Christian) was slaughtered throughout Iraq and Turkey.

    [ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Will ]
     
  2. Justin

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    The Christians slaughted inocent Muslims during the crusades and the Inqusition, enslaving them during the period of colonzlism. You must seek out a state that is not a theocracy, I'm not sure of a country that is mostly Islamic but is democratic as well, but this is where you will find a tolerant state. Theocracies are the most dangerous form of government, I would rather live under communism than a religious oriented government. Religion that holds power will become corrupt, it is a universal truth. Too much power resides in those that rule, seek out a Muslim democracy and then you will have your answer.

    Justin
     
  3. Will

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    Justin,

    You say search out a Muslim democracy and I'll have my answer. Thanks for proving my point. Countries with a Christian worldview became democracies, countries with a Muslim worldview did not. What does that tell you about those worldviews?

    I agree that the revenge that the Christians sought in the crusades for the centuries of Muslim invasions of Europe that preceded them were wrong. The difference is that this violated and was outside of Christian teaching, whereas the jihad is a pillar of Muslim teaching.

    Also, you say that theocracies are the most dangerous form of government. Are you joking? Have you studied the 20th century at all? Atheistic governments (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao) killed more than all other forms of government previously.

    You say you would rather live under a communist regime. Let's see the first thing Pol Pot did when assuming control was to outlaw the worship of God. He went on to kill about half of Cambodia's population. Or how about Stalin, where they complained about the price of wheat in the Ukraine and 7 million were starved to death over a 2 year period. Give me a break.
     
  4. Helen

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    Since this is a Baptist board, I think I can avoid most flames here when I mention that what happened in the Crusades was NOT Christian, but Catholic. There is a world of difference. Christ's Kingdom is NOT of this world, but this world is all the Roman Catholics have to control. Christ would have NEVER led or condoned the Crusades. They were distinctly UNChristian, despite Catholics using Christian terminology so that the name of Christ would be so denigrated.

    Helen
     
  5. Imperial Infidel

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    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/truthcafe

    The Truth Cafe(aka The POST) ~
    Intellectual think tank for dummies featuring and covering: Babe of the Day, Patriotism, Politics, Reason, Liberty, Religion, Philosophy, Music, Sarcasm, Debate, Jokes, Adult Discussion, Inuendo, Hockey, Movies, War, Word of the Day, Sports, History, Art, Satire, Barbershop Quartets, News...
     
  6. Eric B

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also, you say that theocracies are the most dangerous form of government. Are you joking? Have you studied the 20th century at all? Atheistic governments (Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao) killed more than all other forms of government previously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Perhaps theocracies are more dangerous precisely because they appeal to a "higher authority" that can't be questioned, like man can be. Thus they have more power to sway people into submission, and make it a bit less necessary to use force like men who have nothing more than their own authority to go by. But they can still be just as oppressive, more deceptive, as well as spiritually deadening.
     
  7. MikeJ

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    I grow weary of "apologizing" for the Crusades. There were Islamic invasions of Europe for over 1,000 years. They began within 25 years of Mohammed's death and they continued until the second siege of Vienna in 1683. Do we ever hear anyone apologize for these invasions?

    Spain was occupied by Islamic invaders for over 800 years. Every survivor of the siege of Constantinople was beheaded. Every one.

    Yes the Crusades were brutal. But the Crusaders were no more brutal to their conquered peoples than they were to each other during their own fuedal conflicts.

    They were cruel times.
     
  8. Helen

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeJ:
    I grow weary of "apologizing" for the Crusades. There were Islamic invasions of Europe for over 1,000 years. They began within 25 years of Mohammed's death and they continued until the second siege of Vienna in 1683. Do we ever hear anyone apologize for these invasions?

    Spain was occupied by Islamic invaders for over 800 years. Every survivor of the siege of Constantinople was beheaded. Every one.

    Yes the Crusades were brutal. But the Crusaders were no more brutal to their conquered peoples than they were to each other during their own fuedal conflicts.

    They were cruel times.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Roman times were extraordinarily cruel, too, Mike, but you don't see Jesus or any of the Apostles or early church rising up against them!

    Nor were the Crusades successful. Only the First Crusade gained back any territory in the Holy Land, and that was later lost. Other crusades got hung up in Constantinople, fighting the eastern branch of Catholicism! Then there was the pathetic mess of the Children's Crusade. All in all, the Crusades wasted an enormous number of human lives for nothing. And in the name of Christ!

    As far as the Moslem invasions into Europe were concerned, do you really feel that was excuse for the Inquisitions?

    Consider also, please that the Koran (choose your preferred spelling) and Muslim history promote violent overthrow of non-Muslim peoples. They were doing what their religion promoted. Why should they apologize for it? There would only be reason to apologize if they felt they were wrong, and they felt they were right.

    People claiming Christianity have no such excuse. We are NEVER told to overthrow any peoples or government. On the contrary, we are told to respect the authorities God has put over us, to live in peace wherever and whenever possible, and that His Kingdom is NOT of this world.

    There is no comparison at all between biblical Christianity and Islam.

    On the other hand, do you somehow feel that because the Muslims engaged in such horrifying acts that this gives Christians an excuse to do the same?
     
  9. Demona

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    Saudi-Arabia is a peaceful state, ruled by a moslem king. (they're not tolerant, but no religion is, since they need to convince ppl they'Re the only right one)

    Another question: where is the peaceful and tolerant christian state?
     
  10. Bob Alkire

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    Demona, Where is a christian state? This country sure isn't. But you can worship as you want in this country or not worship at all. You can be a christian or worship an apple or anything in between if you wish.
     
  11. Demona

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Alkire:
    Demona, Where is a christian state? This country sure isn't. But you can worship as you want in this country or not worship at all. You can be a christian or worship an apple or anything in between if you wish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    my point exactly.... btw... you remember what happened when Christianity ruled...? I do reallize that's been ages ago, but the Islamic states are exactly at this point right now....(just even more fanatic)
    It's usually religion's rule that destroys... the rule of any given religion
     
  12. Will

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    Demona,

    From your posts, I believe you need to study history just a little. To say that Islamic states are just now to the level of middle age Christian states is ludricrous. Please study the history of the middle East and the last 1400 years of Islamic states.

    If you study the history of countries with predominantly Christian cultures you will find a different history. For example Abolitionists in this country and Europe were all committed Christians. Let's see after 1400 years of Islamic rule, slavery is still legal and practiced in many states.

    Also to blame religion for all bad governments is naive at best and dishonest at worst. Have you studied the 20th century at all? The atheistic states (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao) accounted for more pain and suffering in one century then all other states (Christian or otherwise) combined throughout history.

    [ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Will ]
     
  13. Nemesis

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    Let's point out the various things that Christianity has either led directly or condoned:

    1. The Crusades ... all of them. Right down to the horrible Children's Crusades which turned out to be nothing more than a front to sell the children of poor people to slavery.

    2. The Inquisition ... where Christians found a way to torture people just for believing in different things. The Crucifixiion of Jesus was nothing compared to some of the things the "inquisitors" did to their victims.

    3. Slavery. Yes ... slavery. Christians used the Bible to explain that these "dark-skinned" people were not the children of God because they were not created in his image. They went farther sometimes and said that they were created in the Devil's image.

    4. The Salem Witch Trials. What these "good" Christians did not understand, they burned at the stake.

    5. Opposing woman's rights. After all, why should women be allowed to vote when they should be at home raising the children and cooking dinner? According to the Church, the only role of the woman is to bear children and rear them.

    6. Opposing Civil Rights. Look at the so-called Bible Belt states, that is where the staunchest opposition to civil rights came from.

    If you look at most of the history of Christianity, when confronted with something that is different and/or they don't understand, then they attempt to destroy it or imprison it (either physically or figuratively).

    Its easy to point fingers at the Muslim religion right now, which to me is like taking advantage of a bad situation. Just remember, the Ku Klux Klan are Christian extremists, so I would not be pointing fingers at Muslim extremists.
     
  14. Kiffin

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    Are The Taliban and Bin Laden Muslim extremists or just orthodox Muslims? Frankly their actions resemble early Islam. History does testify that early Islam was a Bloody religion built on military conquest. That is one of the reason most of the Middle East is Islamic. Egypt up until the Islamic invasion was a oasis of Christianity as was much of Northern Africa.

    Marcos Marcos, Egyptian Coptic Orthodox Church historian states,
    "By 642, Egypt had passed from the hands of the Constantinople Emperors, into the hands of the Arab Muslims In the beginning of the Muslim rule and for many centuries afterwards,Coptic Christians were given the choice of either adopting Islam, or unconditional surrender and payment of tribute, or the sword (i.e. to be killed).The Copts had seen many of their own being martyred, or converting to Islam."




    Islam made 2 invasions into Europe but were stopped by Charles "the Hammer" Martel at Tours in 732. As one Historian put it, "A Moslem army, in a crusading search for land and the end of Christianity, after the conquest of Syria, Egypt, and North Africa, began to invade Western Europe under the leadership of Abd-er Rahman, governor of Spain. Abd-er Rahman led an infantry of 60,000 to 400,000 soldiers across the Western Pyrenees and toward the Loire River, but they were met just outside the city of Tours by Charles Martel, known as the Hammer, and the Frankish Army."

    That was 300 years before the crusades. Islamic evangelism in the past was done by the sword and in this PC age is something we don't like to hear. It may be that the Taliban and Saudi Arabia are more closer to the founders of Islam than the so called moderate Muslims.

    The fact is Islam tried their own crusade to exterminate Christianity 300 years before the Europeon Crusades. Fortunately the Franks crushed the Muslims at Tours. Under jihad, Islam conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. Constantinople survived two sieges, one in the 670s and another in 717-718. The Crusades may have been done probably for the wrong motive and certaintly many atrocities were committed by them but some historians see it as a defensive action against aggressive Islam. Many point out that the Muslims themselves provoked the crusades by it's continued attacks on Byzantium.

    The point I am trying to make is that Islam began through Jihad's to subject most of the Middle East into it's camp and a failed attempt to subject Europe. The idea that Islam basically is a peaceful religion is false.

    It is true that most muslims in America are peaceful people and they should have the right to worship the way they want and racism and violence against them is evil. It is sad many are being terrorized by thugs but that does not change the facts of history nor should we watered it down just because a few criminal Americans pervert the atrocity of Sept 11 to harm innocent muslims. Unlike Saudi Arabia which prohibits Christianity we are a Free land that gives freedom of worship.

    [ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
  15. Demona

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
    Demona,

    From your posts, I believe you need to study history just a little. To say that Islamic states are just now to the level of middle age Christian states is ludricrous. Please study the history of the middle East and the last 1400 years of Islamic states.

    If you study the history of countries with predominantly Christian cultures you will find a different history. For example Abolitionists in this country and Europe were all committed Christians. Let's see after 1400 years of Islamic rule, slavery is still legal and practiced in many states.

    Also to blame religion for all bad governments is naive at best and dishonest at worst. Have you studied the 20th century at all? The atheistic states (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao) accounted for more pain and suffering in one century then all other states (Christian or otherwise) combined throughout history.

    [ November 05, 2001: Message edited by: Will ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i agree these states caused many deaths... but only because these were committed in the last century, with weapons of mass destreuction.

    I don't even want to imagine the crusades if the knights had bombers.

    And the history of my own continent is quite well know to me, thx. I've studied it for very long, and i say the islamic states havent been thru their age of enlightment (that'S the part when science took over religious blind faith, and people started to think insead of giving all the powers to king and church)
     
  16. Will

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    Demona,

    You really don't know history if you believe that science happened in spite of religion. Science happened because of religion and the belief that a knowable logical world existed because it was created by God. Isaac Newton for instance wrote many times that he believed the universe was knowable because of God. That's why virtually all major branches of science were founded by committed Christians. Read your history before you make these pronouncements, please.
     
  17. pip

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
    Demona,

    You really don't know history if you believe that science happened in spite of religion. Science happened because of religion and the belief that a knowable logical world existed because it was created by God. Isaac Newton for instance wrote many times that he believed the universe was knowable because of God. That's why virtually all major branches of science were founded by committed Christians. Read your history before you make these pronouncements, please.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    or perhaps all major branches of science were founded during an era where christianity was the dominant religion. since those discoveries, the number of scientists following christianity may have decreased. i cannot say for sure, i do not have access to the stats. but the religious and scientific climates of the present day are not comparable to those of the past.
     
  18. Demona

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will:
    Demona,

    You really don't know history if you believe that science happened in spite of religion. Science happened because of religion and the belief that a knowable logical world existed because it was created by God. Isaac Newton for instance wrote many times that he believed the universe was knowable because of God. That's why virtually all major branches of science were founded by committed Christians. Read your history before you make these pronouncements, please.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    well... i don't know if it happened in spite religion, but it certainly happened in spite of church (&lt;= organized religion). The church forced Galileo, Copernicus & Co to take back their statements, because they were considered blasphemic.
    Not to mention the hatred towards Darwin....
     
  19. Will

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    Demona,

    Please study a little before you make such pronouncements. Copernicus died a patron of the church. The scholars at the time were committed to Aristilean Cosmology not cosmology from the Bible.

    Seventy years later Galileo, who was also a patron of the church, espoused Copernicus' Cosmology. The Church and University scientists were split and it would be 50 to 60 years later that instruments would exist to prove it (Copernicus' theory) out. The reason Galileo was put on house arrest is that in an article he had a character named "The Simpleton" who used the Pope's favorite phrases. In other words he called the Pope a simpleton. Interestingly the Cardinal that defended Galileo before the Pope was himself to be the next Pope.

    What you rehashed is of course the cartoon version that still appears in many grade school texts. Where did this cartoon version first appear, many historians trace it to a French Enlightenment Encyclopedia in the 1800s. It was popularized among English speaking peoples by Bertrand Russell in one of his books. More recently Carl Sagan used it uncritically as an illustration.

    [ November 08, 2001: Message edited by: Will ]
     
  20. Demona

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    both Copernicus and Galileo took back their statements because
    a) Galileos theories that the world was round contradicted the commonly accepted view of the earth with Jerusalem as its centre

    b) Copernicus' theories about the sun being in the middle once again contradisted the common views, that sclaimed the earth the centre of the universe.

    The CHURCH was against all these ideas simply because it weakened it's position

    Same with darwin. His ideas contradicted the bible. If he were a strict follower of his religion, he would have never made his discoveries etc.
     

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