Where was Jesus during the 3 days after he was crucified?

Alright - I am not ABLE to refute what you (all) say and I don't want to, I want to accept and I do believe the Three Persons of the One God-Head, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Sin or not a sin - if I talk here I don't know myself what, I do not doubt God has forgiven me in Jesus Christ. He sees me in my Redeemer. And I can but leave this question with you: WHO, saved you? A man, or God the God-Man Jesus Christ?

 

By the buy Ed Sutton, how do you get me and Arian in each other's arms?

 

Good question, TaliOrlando. I'll try to give you a simple answer from Scripture.

Jesus' body went into the ground, when was placed in Joseph's tomb or sepulchre, around sundown the evening of the crucifixion. (Matt. 27:57-60)

Jesus' spirit was dismissed into the "Father's hand". (Ps. 31:5; Lk. 23:46)

Jesus' soul (He, himself) went to Paradise, aka Abraham's bosom, then located in the heart of the earth in Hades/Sheol [the realm of the departed spirits (or realm of the dead)], where He preached to those there, both the 'lost' in "torments", and the bound angels in "Tatarus", and three days later, took Paradise (His captivity) with Him to the third heaven, in the greatest act of moving ever. (Lk. 23:43; Matt. 12:40; Ps. 16:10; Ac. 2:27; Lk. 16:22-24; I Pet. 3:19; II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6; Eph. 4:8-10) He "took up" His body, as he ascended. (John 20)

BTW, Jesus always had the keys to death and Hades; Satan never had them. (Rev. 1:18) Jesus used the keys to unlock the "Paradise" section of Hades, and removed it in its entirety, for Hades' gates would never prevail against "the church", just as they could not against Him. (Ps. 16:10; Matt. 16:18) I believe he then "locked the gates" again, when Paradise was taken.

That will, I hope, help with a brief answer to most of your questions.

Ed

 

I didn't. (BTW, you mean Arius.) I merely said the view you were speaking to was skating dangerously close, in places, to Arianism.

One of the characteristics of Arianism is it's failure to clearly differentiate between the persons of the Triune God. Your statement that "the Father gave His life as verily as did the Son" is failure to make that distinction, IMO, and was what drew my attention, in the first place.

That is also why I said, "in places". I do not think you are intentionally 'crossing over' into unBiblical teachings, intentionally, but here the language you used is extremely dubious, regardless.

Ed

 

GE, here’s an easy test for you…is Mary Theotokos, Greek for “God bearer”?

ICXC NIKA
-

 

Ed; I am in agreement until you get to this part. Seems to me you have to add a lot of your own personal beliefs to these scriptures to come up with:

I believe that Jesus's hell, was when He was confined to the cross. IMO. I read all of the scripture you gave and can not find where Jesus went down to Hell, where the rich man is. I also do not know where you find paradise in Hell?

The part of Him descending to the lower parts of the earth is when He came down here and took a body of flesh. The part when He ascended is when He went back to Heaven. IMO

Peace,
BBob, :thumbs:

 

Strange, you should mention personal beliefs!

I'll respond in depth, when I see how this post actually "prints up" after attempting it. It sure looks strange on the 'moniter', right now, as to the format. And my lovely, talented, 'computer whiz' bride is asleep, at the moment.

Ed

 

GE

Alright, thanks for pointing out 'Arius' ... But am I wrong that this bloke is remembere primarily for his denial of Jesus' Divinity? I have used a very clymsy comparison, and don't think it deserves all the attention and reaction it got while I so firmly stand on the point Jesus for no moment of His Eternal Existence without or beginning, was not God fully - fully as the Father is God. The Divinity of Jesus Christ had no beginning or end or pause - espcially NOT, WHILE atoning for sins, mbecause atonement for sins, requires nothing less than the POWER and LIFE of God Tri-une IN FULL FELLOWSHIP, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.

 

Fair enough response. Let's look at what I posted, phrase by phrase. I shall now "move" the multiple references, to the appropriate places, in it and I shall now embolden the prior post, to differentiate from any added explanation.

Now the Scripture references are specific to the phrases, in my post.

Hope that helps.

Ed

 

Agnus Dei,
"GE, here’s an easy test for you…is Mary Theotokos, Greek for “God bearer”?"

GE
Glad you asked me this question; it invites the clearing of myself from some misconception in this thread. Let me answer, I am no Roman Catholic. Mary as far as I am concerned disappeared from the scene of the relationship between God and man where John led her away from the scene of Jesus' crucifixion. Do you also believe that?
I repeat, I made an unfortunate statement. I said though, I speak as a human - as the weakling and stupid human being but nevertheless believing human being in an omnipotent eternal God I know ONLY in and through Jesus Christ, and the Father, ONLY, through Him. Glory to our God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - there's no Mediator between God and man, but Jesus Christ. For this faith millions have been killed and persecuted by infidels of all colours and shades.

 

Ed Sutton
"... my lovely, talented, 'computer whiz' bride is asleep, at the moment."

GE
I'm only puzzled that the other day a young man like you talked of the signs of getting old?

 

While that is consistent with Arius, that is not the only doctrinal weakness of 'Arianism'. Please read what I said. I am not accusing anyone of holding this position, least of all you. But I did (after your explanation, which I fully accept, BTW), call attention to some bad wording you used. I did and do not doubt that you are fully orthodox here, in your beliefs. (We'll talk about 'Calvinism' and 'Arminianism' another day, and how they really are the same thing, but I'll not go into that now, by any stretch.)

However, that is not any signal that one should not be careful with the words used, as that was what I was/am trying to say.

Any and all of us may sometimes use wording(s) that are not very Biblical, when we fail to think them through. And I am no different, I'm sure, in this shortcoming. (BTW, I do appreciate it when one points this out to me, so I can correct it, if need be.)

I have mentioned this in many other threads, as well, including those on salvation and Calvinism. I guess I just think it is a good idea to use Biblical wording to describe Biblical things, and try and do so.

Gotta' run, for now.

Ed

 

Signs of gettin' old??

What were those signs, again?? I seem to have forgotten them.

BTW, my bride is young enough to be your daughter, and is 13 yrs and almost 2 months younger than I am. I asked her once, "Will you love me when I'm old and gray?"

She replied, "I already do!"

Ed

 

GE

God bless you with a long and happy marriage.

I married a girl 10 years younger than me, and have never regretted one moment!

 

What about her. :laugh: :laugh:

Just joking!!:BangHead:

 

(Posted by Brother Bob)
Ed; I am in agreement until you get to this part. Seems to me you have to add a lot of your own personal beliefs to these scriptures to come up with:

Quote:
(Posted by EdSutton)

Jesus' soul (He, himself) went to Paradise, aka Abraham's bosom, then located in the heart of the earth in Hades/Sheol [the realm of the departed spirits (or realm of the dead)], where He preached to those there, both the 'lost' in "torments", and the bound angels in "Tatarus", and three days later, took Paradise (His captivity) with Him to the third heaven, in the greatest act of moving ever. (Lk. 23:43; Matt. 12:40; Ps. 16:10; Ac. 2:27; Lk. 16:22-24; I Pet. 3:19; II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6; Eph. 4:8-10) He "took up" His body, as he ascended. (John 20)

1. First, isn’t Abraham’s bosom a type and figure of God?
2. Where do you find that Paradise is in Hell, now of the scriptures you give say as much. NONE!

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

3. Paradise is always UP!!


BTW, Jesus always had the keys to death and Hades; Satan never had them. (Rev. 1:18)

Of course Jesus has the keys to hell, what does that have to do with this discussion.

Jesus used the keys to unlock the "Paradise" section of Hades, and removed it in its entirety, for Hades' gates would never prevail against "the church", just as they could not against Him. (Ps. 16:10; Matt. 16:18) I believe he then "locked the gates" again, when Paradise was taken.

So, which one of the above passages says that Jesus unlocked Paradise.
1. Where does it say that Paradise is in Hell?
2. Where does it say that He removed Paradise from Hell, where do you get this stuff.
3. How could He lock the gates again, if Hell itself is enlarging its borders and unbelievers souls go there everyday, so it must still be unlocked from the outside. I guess you could say it is locked on the inside, or at least they can’t get out.


Fair enough response. Let's look at what I posted, phrase by phrase. I shall now "move" the multiple references, to the appropriate places, in it and I shall now embolden the prior post, to differentiate from any added explanation.
Quote:
Jesus' soul (He, himself) went to Paradise, aka Abraham's bosom, [Lk. 16:22-24, and Lk. 23:43 where Jesus says the thief will today, be with Him in Paradise. Matt. 12:40 has Jesus saying that 'the Son of Man would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.' (Whatever "the heart of the earth" may mean, it certainly does not mean 10' inside a tomb, or "in the grave" for Scripture, as far as I know, never suggests that the "soul and spirit" of anyone who has physcially departed this life, remains near the body, in death.)
Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

The Temple is Jesus and He did mean the grave.



Scripture does not expressly equate Paradise and Abraham's bosom, but it seems consisten with Scripture to make that identification, IMO.]

Well, appreciate your Opinion, but I believe it represents God, which is UP!!


then located in the heart of the earth in Hades/Sheol (Mt. 12:40, where Jesus 'went'.)

Prove it!!, There is no scripture whatsoever that Paradise is in Hell!!! The scripture you gave does not support such a theory.


[the realm of the departed spirits (or realm of the dead)], {[The Hebrew word is "Sheol"; the Greek word is written as "ad??" or as I rather poorly, on the computer, transliterate, as " `ai'dEs" ; or "Hades", as we would render it in English. (I cannot reproduce the Hebrew in any way, on my computer, not having those skills.) We know He was there (at some point), because of the prophecy in Ps. 16:10 where it says His soul would not be left in Sheol (NKJV), and Peter quotes this about Jesus in Acts 2:27][BTW, there are at least two very good sermons preached in Acts about the life of Christ, and His work, that reference Ps. 16:10 - the first here by Peter, at Pentecost, (Acts 2:27) and then again by Paul (Ac. 13:35) in Acts 13:16-41.]}and

where He preached to those there, ("in prison" - I Pet. 3:18-20 c.f. II Pet. 2:4 & Jude 6)

both the 'lost' in "torments" (Lk. 16:23 a noun, a real place known as torments, and separated from Abraham's bosom by the "great gulf fixed"),

and the bound angels in "Tartarus", (II Pet. 2:4, lit.,& YLT, HCSB),

and three days later, took Paradise [His captivity "captive" [Eph. 4:8-10, (note that v. 9 says He descended INTO the lower parts of the earth) thereby fulfilling both the type of Barak (Judg. 5:12) and the prophecy (Ps. 68:18)]
with Him to the third heaven, (II Cor. 12:2-4)

in the greatest act of moving ever.(My 'editorializing' in this comment, I admit.) (Lk. 23:43; Matt. 12:40; Ps. 16:10; Ac. 2:27; Lk. 16:22-24; I Pet. 3:19; II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6; Eph. 4:8-10)

Again, you have not given scriptural support for such a theory.
1. The Angels are bound until the end of time.
2. Paradise is with God, and not in Hell.
3. Hell, some Paradise.


He "took up" His body, (and therefore His life, in resurrection)

as he ascended. [Jn. 10:17-18; - John 20, with Jn. 20:17 is where here Jesus tells Mary: "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘ I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’"(NKJV)]}

His Body, soul and spirit going back to the Father.


BTW, Jesus always had the keys to death and Hades; Satan never had them. (Rev. 1:18) [Scripture never expressly declares that Satan did not ever have the keys of death and Hades (nor does it imply that he did, as far as I can tell), but the fact that God would not allow Satan to kill Job, certainly implies this. And Jesus had "the keys to the kingdom of heaven" which he gave to Peter in Matt. 16: 19.] I believe (although Scripture never declares this specifically, as far as I know, about the uses of these keys) that

I still do not know your point on Jesus having the Keys to Hell, that is a given.


Jesus used "the keys of death and Hades" to unlock the "Paradise" section of Hades, and removed it in its entirety, for Hades' gates would never prevail against "the church", just as they could not against Him. (Ps. 16:10; Matt. 16:18) I believe he then "locked the gates" again, when Paradise was taken.

Again, where do you get this in scripture that Jesus removed Paradise from Hell, There was a great gulf between Paradise and Hell.
1. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Did the angels come out of Hell to get the beggar Lazurus?


Now the Scripture references are specific to the phrases, in my post.

Hope that helps.

BBob,

continued:

 

Jesus said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were already in heaven before he went to the cross.
Mt: 8:11: And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Another proof that Paradise is up is in what Paul told us.

2Cor:12: 2: I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3: And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

4: How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Notice two things, one is that he was caught up into paradise. The other was that he didn’t know if he went in the flesh or was having a vision. In other words it is possible for us like the rich man and Lazarus to have a vision of such things and not be able to tell the difference.

The scriptures teach us that when a man dies that his body will go back to the dust that he was created from and that his spirit goes back to God that gave it.

Eccl:3:20: All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Eccl:12:7: Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

BBob,

Ed, I need to thank you for causing me to study the depths of "Sheol" and "Hades" and the myths of the Greeks and the Jewish beliefs about Sheol and Hades. I can see where some have come up with many different beliefs on Hell. I think we get into strange beliefs, to delve into those myths and try to apply them to scripture. The myths were there before the scripture and seem to have had an influence on the Fathers of "old". It has enlighten me on this subject, and for that I thank you.

 

1. Abraham's "bosom" is never said in scripture to be the name of a place, nor to be "in the earth" nor "in Hades" nor "in paradise".
In Luke 16 it is a reference to someone really sitting in Abraham's Lap and being comforted after death -- with Abraham "in charge" of all dead saints and rendering decisions (without reference to God) for those making requests.

2. There is no connection at all in Luke between "Abraham's bosom" and "paradise".

3. There is nothing in Matt 8 stating that "Abraham is NOW in heaven" -- the text does not say "many will come and find that Abraham went to heaven before them". Rather they will all get there right along WITH Abraham "For the Dead and Christ will rise first -- then we who are alive and remain will be caught up WITH THEM in the air... so shall we ever be WITH the Lord".

4.you said

That is true for ALL - that is a description of the process of death and is common to all - both the saved and the lost.

 

Correct as usual.

2 Points to add to your argument above.

1. Paradise is only mentioned 3 times in all of scripture -- so it should be very easy to identify.

2. Rev 2 states that Paradise is "where the Tree of Life" is. - Rev 22 says that God's Throne is ALSO "where the Tree of Life is".

We can conclude from that 3rd and final reference to Paradise found in Revelation - that Paradise is in heaven - where God is.

in Christ,

Bob

 

quotes of Brother Bob in red.

1. First, isn’t Abraham’s bosom a type and figure of God?

Scripture doesn't say what you are asking about "type and figure", but Abraham's bosom was the place where Lazarus was carried, as I noted. I believe that Abraham's bosom was a real place, and that is what Jesus seems to be saying as well. Contrary to what is often proclaimed, this account is not said to be a parable.

2. Where do you find that Paradise is in Hell, now of the scriptures you give say as much. NONE!

I didn't say "Hell", in the sense you are implying. (In fact, I did not use the word "Hell" at all, in order not to confuse "the Lake of Fire" or "Gehenna", with Sheol/Hades - "the realm of the dead.") Therefore I didn't once say Paradise is in Hell, although you have tried to make me as saying that at least three times, so far. Nor does Scripture say it, either, and I did not claim that it did.

You are aware, I hope, that death and "Hades" (rendered as 'hell' in the KJV in Rev. 20:14) are "cast into the lake of fire". It makes less than no sense to consider "the lake of fire" to be "cast into the lake of fire". So "Hades" must not be the same as "Gehenna". And it isn't.

3. Paradise is always UP!!

Well, it is when Paul speaks of it, I guess, for the Scripture says it was (at that time, at least) in the third heavens, and Paul was caught up into Paradise, as I noted.

Of course Jesus has the keys to hell, what does that have to do with this discussion.

The OP mentioned that she had heard it said that Jesus 'went "to Hades and took the keys of hell from Satan". I answered that this was not correct. (BTW, standingfirminChrist had already said this, as well, all the way back in post #2.) FTR, he has said much the same thing as I have said. Read his posts (#2, 5, 6, 8, 21) on this, along with those of Amy.G (#4, 7, 10) and Zenas (#14). They all seem to 'get it', as well.

So, which one of the above passages says that Jesus unlocked Paradise.

I said Jesus 'unlocked' the "Paradise" section of Hades, and removed it (Paradise) in its entirety, (having previously made the point of - ) and took Paradise (His captivity "captive" ... with Him to the third heaven.

1. Where does it say that Paradise is in Hell?

I didn't, Scripture doesn't, and we've already covered that above. I see no reason to repeat it, again.

2. Where does it say that He removed Paradise from Hell, where do you get this stuff.

Since Paradise never was 'in Hell' (Scripture never says this, and I didn't say that it was, either.), I didn't "get this stuff" from anywhere. But apparently you got it from somewhere. Where that may be, I have no clue.

3. How could He lock the gates again, if Hell itself is enlarging its borders and unbelievers souls go there everyday, so it must still be unlocked from the outside. I guess you could say it is locked on the inside, or at least they can’t get out.

Uh- yeah! Not 'getting out' is part of the idea, I believe.

The Temple is Jesus and He did mean the grave.

Well, he did speak of the temple of His body, in Jn. 2:19, but what does that have to do with Mt. 12:40; Lk. 16:22-24; and Lk. 23:43? Or are you saying that Paradise was actually "the grave", in the context of what I did say? Surely you wouldn't say that, I do not think.

Well, appreciate your Opinion, but I believe it represents God, which is UP!!

Whose opinion? Got a verse or two to show this one? Or should I expect a quote from Origen or Marcion, the Heretic, or Spurgeon, or Calvin or somebody??

Prove it!!, There is no scripture whatsoever that Paradise is in Hell!!! The scripture you gave does not support such a theory.
I know this sounds like "a stuck record" (something you, me, and only about 16 other BB members will actually remember) but I don't need any Scripture for something I did not say, or to support some non-existent theory.

Again, you have not given scriptural support for such a theory.

I have given over 30 Scripture verses (by count) in this one post. Almost all had identical direct wording about one or more of the phrases in the associated sentences. How many verses are you wanting?

1. The Angels are bound until the end of time.

Agreed, as to some of them, but I never said they were not.

2. Paradise is with God,

It's in the third heaven, anyway.

and not in Hell.

:BangHead:

3. Hell, some Paradise.

"Ditto" the 'smilie' above. I can only use four, in a post, and I still have a ways to go. {Sigh!}

His Body, soul and spirit going back to the Father.

As I already basically said this, your point is ... ??

I still do not know your point on Jesus having the Keys to Hell, that is a given.

Already covered above.

Again, where do you get this in scripture that Jesus removed Paradise from Hell,


:BangHead: I knew I'd need more 'smilies' than I had available, before I was done. I need a "roll-eyes smilie", still!

Ed