Where's the line?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by James_Newman, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. James_Newman

    James_Newman
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    Most Christians will agree that God chastens His sons in this life.(Hebrews 12) But if it is suggested that this chastening may continue beyond this life the knee-jerk reaction is to say that a Christian cannot be chastened in the next life because Christ payed for his sins. I agree that a Christians sins are payed for, once for all. But how then do we understand chastening in this life? If the payment of the Cross exempts us from any consequences after death, why then can God judge us for sins in this life? Where does the bible say that a Christian will not experience any chastening after death?
     
  2. J. Jump

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    I think most people see it that way because they think that once a person experiences death then the next phase is eternity. People either don't believe in or forget that there is a 1,000-year period that takes place before what we think of eternity begins.
     
  3. Frenchy

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    Revelation 7:17
    For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


    Revelation 21:4
    And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    I don't know about you but when a child is chastened he usually cries from the pain.

    according to scripture there will nothing NEGATIVE for those who are in Christ Jesus in the after life. AMEN!
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Perhaps the question should be: Where does the Bible say that a Christian will experience any chastening after death?

    That being said there are a number of passages that indicate the joy that awaits the Christian.

    1 Peter 1:6-9
    6. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
    7. That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
    8. Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
    9. Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


    Revelation 7:9-12
    9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.


    Revelation 21:3, 4
    3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    Sorry Frenchy, I did not see your post. [​IMG]
     
  6. James_Newman

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    OK, lets take a look at these verses and find out what they are talking about.

    Revelation 7:13-17
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    This passage is speaking of a particular class of Christians, probably those who are being martyred during the tribulation.

    Revelation 6:9-11
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    No doubt those who are killed for Christ's sake and the word of God will not suffer at the judgement seat, but are promised that they will reign with Him. They certainly will not be crying. Now lets look at the next passage.

    Revelation 21:4
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    This sounds like the same promise that we heard in Rev 7, but the time frame is different. The passage in rev 7 occurs between the opening of the 6th and 7th seal during the tribulation. After the tribulation of course we have Satan being bound for a thousand years (Rev 20:2) while the Lord reigns on the earth, then we have Satan being loosed and the final battle with the nations that he deceives, God devouring them with fire. Then the great white throne judgment. So after the great white throne we have God wiping away all the tears from their eyes and there will be no more death. So who's tears are being wiped away in this verse? It is not those in chapter 7 who are reigning with Christ during the millennium.

    You said yourself
    These people crying are crying for a reason.

    Matthew 24:48-51
    48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
     
  7. JackRUS

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    Since there will be no sin in heaven, exactly what would God be chastening anyone for?
     
  8. genesis12

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    hmmmm ... The payment of the Cross assures us that the consequences after death are joy. We do go thru the Judgment Seat of Christ, but there is no judgment for sin / sins there. Those passing thru that judgment go on out into eternity, having received their rewards .

    As to chastenings in this life, 1 John 1:9 says that we restore fellowship with God by confessing our daily sins. Unconfessed sins lead to chastenings.

    Therefore, God's judgments (chastenings) in this life are for our good; oft they are nudges and sometimes kicks in the seat of the pants to stay on the straight and narrow, but they are not judgment in the sense of a rap sheet being used against us at some future date. [​IMG]
     
  9. James_Newman

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    1 Corinthians 11:29-31
    29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
    30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

    Can a man repent of something after he has died? I fully believe that as long as a man is living, the Lord may have mercy on him and he may repent and confess sins and get right with God. But there comes a time when God says enough is enough and the time of mercy is over.

    1 John 5:16
    16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

    So what is to prevent God from chastening a brother who has sinned a sin unto death? God can't chasten a dead person?
     
  10. J. Jump

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    That's what I don't understand. Most Christians, or at least a good number of Christians, will say that if a person is walking in sin that is unconfessed that that believer's fellowship with God is hindered if not cut off.

    But what amazes me is most Christians believe that if a person dies in that unconfessed sin they think there is something magical about death that just does away with that sin and the fellowship is automatically restored because the person dies.

    When just thinking about that it doesn't make a lot of sense. If a person's fellowship with the Lord is in disaray now death is not the cure all. That relationship still has to be dealt with.

    There are some that allow discipline in their lives in the hear and now, and they allow God to mold them and shape them. But unfortunately there are others that have no desire to be molded or shaped and they will have to go through that process during the 1,000 years so that once eternity begins they are not going to mess everything up for everyone else.
     
  11. GLC

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    James:
    Jesus paid the sin debt for the Christian on the cross. He did this because we are without any abiity to pay for it ourselves. Without Jesus' payment credited to our account, we would be forced to spend eternity making never ending partial payments. Once Jesus paid the debt, it was fully satisfied/finished! So, chastening in this life is not for the purpose of being punished as payment for sin. We are chastened as sons. A good father chastens his son not to extract punishment or payment for wrongdoing. Rather, he chastens the son to mold him for better things ahead and to bring him closer to fellowship with his father.
     
  12. BroShane

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    There is a difference between the noun and verb form of sin. When Christ died (and rose again for our justification) all who accept Him as Lord and Savior are forgiven of both the fallen state intot which we were born and for the sins we have committed.

    The verb form of sin the actions we do that fall short of what would please the Lord. They are acts, not states. So, when I commit a sin (such as lying) I am not pleasing God and falling short, but the condemnation has already been done away with at the cross. So, the fellowship may be broken by our actions, but the relationship can not be broken by us since we didn't have the power to initiate it, and since we can not break what God has mended.

    That is what is so amazing about grace - it doesn't make sense to us becuase our sense of justice and fairness gets in the way. I mean this with no offense, but the way you described it sounds fair until you are the one in question. Then we start to look for some other standard by which we can find mercy. Thankfully, the Lord already has it in place.
     
  13. J. Jump

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    Bro. Shane, I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully. I do not want anyone to get the misunderstanding that I believe that a Christian can fall from grace or lose his/her salvation. That's not what I was saying at all.

    However, what I was saying is exactly what you were pointing out. We continue to sin despite our salvation. That sin must be dealt with on a continual basis or our fellowship/relationship with God will not be right. We are still His children, but not in good standing when we are walking in unconfessed sin.

    So if we are in disfellowship with God now and we die in that unconfessed sin then why do some think death is a magic potion that makes that unconfessed sin go away.

    It must be dealt with.

    And I agree totally that God's discipline is for our good. And it will be for the good of those that continue to receive it during that 1,000-year period.

    Most children see a spaking as punishment, so it's no wonder we as children of God are any different. But that's not how God sees it and it's not how we should see it. We should view God's discipline as corrective measures that are only going to help us not hurt us.
     
  14. BroShane

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    Understood, thanks.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    James_Newman

    When you attempt to explain Scripture from a dispensational viewpoint things get confusing don't they? [Your post of March 21, 2006 10:01 PM]
     
  16. OldRegular

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    That is probably reminiscent of the rationale that lead to the doctrine of Purgatory.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    [​IMG]
     
  18. J. Jump

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    OldRegular can you point me to a Scripture passage that teaches that death is the cure all for a Christian that dies while walking in unrepentant sin.

    And by the way God's discipline and the Catholic ideal of purgatory are two different things. But I will agree that the purgatory teaching is probably a false teaching that spun off of a true teaching dealing with God's chastisement of His children. But as far as I can tell there's not truth to the purgatory teaching in my little experience with that teaching.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    So why would you assume that if you died out of fellowship with God that there would be no chastening? This is what I am trying to understand, where in the bible does it say that when you die everything is OK and your sin no longer affects your standing with God?

    Did Ananias and Sapphira find themselves in white robes sitting at the Master's table waiting for Jesus to serve them some manna? Or are there consequences for sin? Dying in this life is hardly something to fear when you believe in a resurrection. Yet all those around them feared when they saw what happened. What did they fear?

    Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Jesus certainly has the right to punish His servants who are walking in disobedience. Just because we have been saved from the eternal penalty of sin does not mean that we will not be judged. Rather the bible affirms over and over that we will be judged and we will receive for the things that we have done.

    Hebrews 10:26-29
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Can I be certain that I will be judged if I sin wilfully? Certainly I can according to verse 27.
     
  20. OldRegular

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    Can you point to a verse of Scripture which indicates that God punishes His children by adoption after death?

    Also you are incorrect about purgatory. The doctrine of purgatory is precisely that of purging veniel sins and being punished for mortal sins.
     

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