Which 1611 KJV edition does yours follow?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Logos1560, Feb 16, 2014.

  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    Which of the two varying 1611 editions of the KJV does your present edition of the KJV follow: the 1611 'He' Bible or the 1611 'She' Bible?

    The 1611 reprint editions available today are reprints of the 1611 'He' edition although most present KJV editions have departed from that 1611 'He' edition at Genesis 10:16, Ruth 3:15, and Song of Solomon 2:7 along with many other changes and revisions to the text of that 1611 edition.

    Genesis 10:16 [see Gen. 48:22, Exod. 33:2] [Emori--1560 Geneva, 1602 Bishops]
    Emorite (1679, 1709, 1715, 1720, 1728, 1746, 1747, 1753, 1754, 1755, 1758, 1762, 1765, 1768, 1772, 1777, 1783, 1784 Oxford) [1629, 1637, 1638, 1648, 1677, 1683, 1743, 1747, 1756, 1760, 1762, 1763B, 1765, 1767, 1768, 1769 Cambridge] {1611 ‘He,’ 1613, 1614, 1616, 1617, 1631, 1650, 1672, 1684, 1705, 1706, 1711, 1735, 1741, 1747, 1750, 1760, 1763, 1764, 1772 London} (1755 Oxon) (1638, 1722, 1735, 1756, 1760, 1764, 1766, 1769 Edinburgh) (1762 Dublin) (1746 Leipzig) (1776 Pasham) (1782 Aitken) (1791 Collins) (1790, 1804 MH) (1810, 1832, 1835 Scott) (1833 WEB)
    Amorite (1675, 1769 Oxford, SRB) [DKJB] {1611 ‘She,‘ 1634, 1640, 1644, 1660, 1767 London}

    Ruth 3:15 [went--1560 Geneva]
    he went [1873, 2005, 2011 Cambridge] {1611 ‘He’ London} (1843 AFBS) (1853, 1854, 1855, 1858 ABS) (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2006 PENG) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    she went (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1629, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB] {1611 ‘She’ London}

    Song of Solomon 2:7 [she please--1560 Geneva; she be content her self--1602 Bishops]
    till she please {1611 ‘He” London} (1853, 1855, 1858 ABS)
    till he please (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB] {1611 ‘She’ London}

    On the other hand, most present KJV editions differ from the 1611 'She' edition in a number of places although some present 1873 Cambridge-based editions follow it. Here are a few example places in the Old Testament where some present KJV editions follow the 1611 'She' edition but where most do not.

    Genesis 46:17 [see also 1 Sam. 14:49 for spelling of the same Hebrew name]
    Ishui [1873, 2005, 2011 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She,’ 1631, 1640, 1644, 1650, 1684, 1741 London} (1755 Oxon) (1700 MP) (1776 Pasham) (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2006 PENG) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    Isui (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1629, 1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Genesis 47:27 [possessions--1602 Bishops]
    they had possession therein [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    they had possessions therein (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Leviticus 18:30 [shall ye keep--1602 Bishops]
    Therefore ye shall keep [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    Therefore shall ye keep (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Numbers 10:2 [shalt thou make them--1602 Bishops]
    thou shalt make them [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    shalt thou make them (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Deuteronomy 8:7
    of the valleys [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    of vallies [1769 Cambridge] (1787, 1791, 1793 Edinburgh)
    of valleys (1769 Oxford, SRB) [DKJB]

    Deuteronomy 17:4 [it be true--1602 Bishops]
    it is true [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    it be true (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Deuteronomy 32:15
    thou art waxed [1873, 2005, 2011 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2006 PENG) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    thou art waxen (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    1 Kings 3:20 [And she rose--1560 Geneva; And she arose--1602 Bishops]
    And she rose [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    And she arose (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    1 Kings 9:22 [bondmen--1602 Bishops[
    make no bondman [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    make no bondmen (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Job 19:15 [maids--1560 Geneva; maidens--1602 Bishops]
    my maidens [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She,’ 1631, 1644 London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    my maids (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB] {1611 ‘He’ London}

    Proverbs 11:20
    unto the LORD [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    to the LORD (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Isaiah 65:2 [mine hands--1560 Geneva, 1568 Bishops]
    mine hands [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She‘ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    my hands (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Jeremiah 25:15 [mine hand--1560 Geneva]
    mine hand [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    my hand (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Ezekiel 6:14 [mine hand--1560 Geneva, 1568 Bishops]
    mine hand [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’, 1631, 1644 London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    my hand (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Ezekiel 31:18 [see Ezek. 31:17--with the sword] [by the sword--1560 Geneva; with the sword--1602 Bishops]
    with the sword [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    by the sword (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Daniel 2:34 [to pieces--1560 Geneva, 1602 Bishops] [in pieces--NKJV]
    brake them in pieces [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    brake them to pieces (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]

    Nahum 1:10 [see “they be folden”]
    they be drunken [1873 Cambridge] {1611 ‘She’ London} (2000, 2002 ZOND) (TPB) (HPB) (2008, 2010, 2011 HEND) (NHPB)
    they are drunken (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB]
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon
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    Curious changes!

    Add these two from my favorite edition of the KJV.

    and the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girgashite,
    Genesis 10:16 (AV 1873)

    I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem,
    By the roes, and by the hinds of the field,
    That ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.
    Song of Solomon 2:7 (AV 1873)

    Rob
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    Do the KJVO even have a standard Kjv version to point towards as being "The Kjv!" then?
     
  4. JamesL

    JamesL
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    I think that's the point. Which version of the Authorized version is supposed to be the real version?

    KJVO answer: which ever one I'm currently holding in my hand

    KJVO answer: don't confuse me with the facts
     
  5. prophet

    prophet
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    I'm a "he" myself. The context seems clear.
    I use the 1873 Oxford paragraph, currently, but am not pleased with a couple of updates.

    Still a fan of the 1611, second edition, after the printing errors were discovered.

    Still a fan of further updates.

    Never will be a fan of any of the MV.

    SS 2:7
    7 I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem,
    by the gazelles or the does of the field,
    that you not stir up or awaken love
    until it pleases.
    (ESV)
    This loses all sense of the narrative.
     
  6. Deacon

    Deacon
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    I'm not certain what verse you think the context is clear about.

    If you like literal translations in Song of Songs 2:7, the Hebrew clearly is feminine – the ESV translators believed that the subject of the word was "love" and so they used the neuter "it".

    The controversy in Ruth 3:15 is a bit more complicated.
    WHO WENT INTO THE CITY?

    And he said, “Bring the garment you are wearing and hold it out.” So she held it, and he measured out six measures of barley and put it on her. Then she went into the city. (ESV)

    Also he said, Bring the vail that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And when she held it, he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and he went into the city. (AV 1873)

    Also he said, “Bring the shawl that is on you and hold it.” And when she held it, he measured six ephahs of barley, and laid it on her. Then she went into the city. (NKJV)

    Then Boaz said to her, “Bring your cloak and spread it out.” He measured six scoops of barley into the cloak and placed it on her back. Then he returned to the town. (NLT)

    Again he said, “Give me the cloak that is on you and hold it.” So she held it, and he measured six measures of barley and laid it on her. Then she went into the city. (NASB95)

    He also said, “Bring me the shawl you are wearing and hold it out.” When she did so, he poured into it six measures of barley and placed the bundle on her. Then he went back to town. (NIV)

    And he told Ruth, “Bring the shawl you’re wearing and hold it out.” When she held it out, he shoveled six measures of barley into her shawl, and she went into the town. (HCSB)

    Then he said, “Bring the cloak you are wearing and hold it out.” So she held it, and he measured out six measures of barley, and put it on her back; then he went into the city. (NRSV)

    And he said, “Bring the mantle you are wearing and hold it out.” So she held it, and he measured out six measures of barley, and laid it upon her; then she went into the city. (RSV)

    And he said, Bring the mantle that is upon thee, and hold it; and she held it; and he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her: and he went into the city. (1901 ASV)

    And he said to her, Bring the apron that is upon thee: and she held it, and he measured six measures of barley, and put them upon her, and she went into the city. (Brenton LXX En)

    And he said, Bring the cloak that thou hast upon thee, and hold it. And she held it, and he measured six measures of barley, and laid it on her; and he went into the city. (DARBY)

    He said to her, ‘Take the cloak you are wearing, and hold it out.’ When she did so, he poured in six measures of barley and lifted it for her to carry, and she went off to the town. (REB)

    Then he said to her, “Take off your cloak and hold it out.” When she did so, he poured out six measures of barley, helped her lift the bundle, and left for the city. (NAB)

    Rob
     
  7. prophet

    prophet
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    SS 2:2-3
    2 As the lily among thorns,
    so is my love among the daughters.
    3 As the apple tree among the trees of the wood,
    so is my beloved among the sons.
    I sat down under his shadow with great delight,
    and his fruit was sweet to my taste.

    The context here is obviously a woman talking about her male lover.

    SS 2:7
    7 I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem,
    by the roes, and by the hinds of the field,
    that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.


    Context. Her 'love' is "he".
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
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    Songs 2:7 is a good example why you might want to include modern versions in your study of the bible.

    Look at your version. Song of Solomon 2:7 (AV 1873)

    I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem,
    By the roes, and by the hinds of the field,
    That ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please.


    Note the word, "my" is italicized.

    In AV 1873's Introduction, it describes the way italics were used by the translators of the 1611 version.
    Italics in the KJV were a warning of divergence from the text.

    Modern translators also believe a mistranslation occurred with the translation of the word "please", which is third person, feminine, singular;
    they agree with you that "she please" doesn't seem to fit the context.

    This leaves translators with a choice: "it please" or "he please" - - - but "he please" diverges from the Hebrew text.

    As you noted, the context is obviously a woman talking about her male lover… to a group of young women (the daughters of Jerusalem).

    She charges them, [adjures, solemnly urges, causes them to swear an oath…]
    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Feb 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 20, 2014
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    I am still trying to recocile KJVO belief that 1611 kjv was perfect translation, yet many refuse to use that, using newer revisions instead!
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon
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    By comparing versions you can observe how the translators of the various versions solved the problem before them.

    Translators have used "he please", "she please", "it please" and other variations.

    Here are two versions that take differing approaches:

    Song of Solomon 2:7b

    The translators of the New English Bible recognized the feminine gender markers and believed the bridegroom was speaking.

    Bridegroom:
    Do not rouse her, do not disturb my love
    until she is ready. (NEB)

    I personally think the New Revised Standard Version did the best job with this verse.

    do not stir up or awaken love
    until it is ready! (NRSV)

    [note the text-driven use of the exclamation mark!]


    The science of translation is not like a scientific formula: multiple options mean multiple understandings.

    In a case like this we can characterize a translation as strong or weak - not right or wrong.

    Rob
     

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