Which "camp" is really the defender of Divine Sovereignty?

There is no Calvary and no full display of the love and grace and mercy of God without man and the fall.

Ephesians 2:7 and Romans 5:8 tell us clearly why he created and died.

 

you got any hairy kids?

 

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


But since you're a Calvinist you don't have to worry about finding it. It will be found for you. :laugh:

:love2:

 

Excellent point! I haven't read past this posting, but I wonder how the DoG's will respond.

 

Luke

to state the obvious, without creation there would be no need for calvary, I know your position as it relates to "glorifying God", I understand it, respect it, but do not share it.

 

I again dont know where your getting this Minority/Majority thing you keep advancing, I do not believe it to be scriptural. Of cource I could now become fearful but Im not. My faith in god enables me to believe it will work out. If Im reading you guys right, then it's fear based that drives you away from Reformed Beliefs. Of course he doesnt show mercy on everyone but it is scriptural... ROMANS9:15 I will have mercy on who I will have mercy & I will have compassion on who I have compassion.

 

Angle? Jesus himself told us the vast majority of people will go to hell.

Matt 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto LIFE, and FEW there be that find it.

The vast majority of people will go to hell, only a few will find life.

If your doctrine is true, there is a higher probability your children will be lost than saved.

And there is nothing you can do about it.

 

And no, I know exactly why God is not going to save the majority of people, because they willingly refuse to believe God's word and trust Jesus.

 

What makes the minority so much wiser than the majority?

 

Webdog is correct. I can honestly say I don't want anyone to go to hell, even people who have done much wrong like Hitler.

Calvinism would teach that men are more loving and merciful than God.

Of course, once you abandon this ridiculous doctrine of Limited Atonement and believe God really does desire for all men to be saved, this problem disappears.

God loves all men much greater than we can know or imagine.

 

Classic Calvinist argument, ask a difficult question that people cannot answer.

Look, I like mustard on a hamburger, most folks prefer ketchup. Why? I don't know.

I could ask you the same, why does God only save a few people when he could save all?

Now, you can't answer that one, but I can.

 

So you feel that whole thing is entirely election.....you must be a hyper Calvinist. Do you also feel that the Elect are completely exonerated from hell? Are you elect?

 

Bingo!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

I can answer both and quite easily with Bible-

God decreed it.

Lam 3:37-38 Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and bad come?


Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?


Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all My purpose,’



Prov 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He will.

Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. (Note – this is the 3rd most frequently quoted passage in the NT)

Ezek 36:26-27 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules.

Mark 4:11-12 And He said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that “they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.”

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:65 And He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

John 12:39-40 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Rom 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Rom 11:8 As it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

 

Is this a joke? I just said Limited Atonement is a ridiculous doctrine. I do not agree with any of the 5 points of Calvinism.

And I received Jesus as my Savior around 46 years ago. So, yes I am elect, but I rarely say it like that, I say I am saved.

 

no joke winman. you have only a cursorily understanding of Reformed Theology but you presume to tell me just how it fits together & how your belief system is better than mine. OK per your understanding ....but the only thing is that you paint a picture of Calvinism to suit your character....not true Calvinism. What youve done brother is looked at Hyper-Calvinism & made that the poster boy of all Reformed beliefs. Why cant you just be happy that people are Christian believers & let it go at that?

 

You didn't even know Jesus said only a few would be saved and many lost.

It is simple logic. If God elects to save only a few, then the majority must be passed by.

Therefore, if you looked at a group of 100 people, most would be lost.

And if you had ten children, chances are most will be lost.

Being you believe in Unconditional Election, there is no reason to believe any higher percentage of your children would be saved. There is the possibility they would all be saved, but there is an equal chance they would all be lost.

They may not teach you this, but is the logical conclusion of your doctrine.

Seems to me that you don't understand your own doctrine.

 

That is not hyper-calvinism. Every person who has ever engaged you in a debate can tell you that you do not know what you are talking about here.

I recommend finding a Bible College, even if it is Arminian or Catholic, and getting your facts straight. There is not a reputable Christian institution on earth that would back three quarters of what you argue on baptistboard.

I am right this very moment attending Liberty University and they are strongly anti-calvinist, but they would not endorse 75% of your arguments.

You are in no condition intellectually to correct EWF about Calvinism and ANY of us can assure you of that.

Earth, Wind and Fire is right.

It is not that simple. God may have elected all 100 for all we know.

Furthermore, it seems to be a particular mercy of God upon his chosen that he tends to save their children.

 

There is a lot of messy posts to clean up and I don't know where to begin. Lots of misunderstandings, lots of confusion, lots of careless statements.

1. Yes, the majority go to hell.
2. If I knew my child was going to go to hell before I decided to have children then I would not have children. Yet, God knows many of His created people will go to hell and yet He still creates them. My point was not intended to go on a wild goose chase, but to show God's ways are different and His purposes are not man-centered, but for His glory. Yes, God is glorified in His love for us and is glorified for judgment. No, God does enjoy sin or desire for any sin from any creature. Yet, God wills it, uses it, and so forth as I said earlier in the thread.

3. As for kids. I have no children, but if I do all of my faith is in the Lord in how He deals with them. Its not about odds at all. My desire is for the will of God to be done and if He does not save my sinful children, what am I to say? Yes, I will tell them the Gospel and they will need to respond, but it is up to God to save them if He is willing. There is a sense in which God extends His grace throughout family members, so I would have confidence that God would save my kids.

 

Did you also know you have issues with Fear? And I know my theology backwards & forwards thank you.

Wow, how could anyone run lockstep with you. Pretty pathetic.