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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by SaggyWoman, Aug 23, 2005.
Do you get cleaned up to come to Christ, or do you come to Christ and get cleaned up?
Repentance is the turning from the sin that has characterized your life up to the time you were regenerated. As the bible says that repentance is a gift God gives at the time of regeneration, along with faith, it seems clear that God regenerates us, gives us repentance to turn from our ungodly ways, and faith to follow the Savior.
As to whether we "come to Christ" or not, that is an entirely different discussion. I did not come, I would not come, I could not come, until I was drawn by the Father. John 6:44.
Your semantics is wearing me out.
When does cleaning occur, before or after repentance?
I know how it worked out in Isaiah 6:
Isaiah acknowledged his sin before the Lord: Woe is me, for I am undone...</font>
Isaiah 6:6-7 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth with it, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your iniquity is taken away, and your sin purged."</font>
Cleansing, according to that scripture, came after repentance.
You can't get "cleaned up" to come to Christ, because we can't "clean" ourselves! Cleansing comes upon the moment of believing and regeneration (which I think are simultaneous, or if not, we don't know the order).
I look at these matters as happening in parallel with each and several other actions. This can only happen with a God who exists and operates outside of time as we know it.
1 John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
This is a process that happens not only at the moment of salvation, but should happen daily in a Christians life. We should repent and confess our sins daily, and daily accept His forgivness and cleansing.
Marcia phrased it best. You can't clean yourself up, so you have to come to Christ to get cleaned up. But I also agree with Squire. It is simultaneous or parallel. Coming to Christ is like "step one of repenting."
Also, I don't think "woe is me," is necessarily repenting. Lots of people admit they are wrong, and do nothing to change that wrong.
I know, from my own conversion, that I came to Christ before I repented. It was after I knew Christ, seconds after, that I knew I needed to repent. I don't know how to put it in clear words for others. My daughter and I describe the very minute of salvation as "the wow moment." That one moment when you step from "faith" to "knowing". The moment that you KNOW, with everything you are, that Christ is real.
This is one thing non-Christians never get. One thing that people who were raised in places like the Catholic church but who never made a personal committment to Christ don't get. Christians go from "being taught about Christ," and from "believing in their head," to KNOWING Christ.
And that moment you've stepped into a better universe.
Marcia and TS,
Be ye fishers of men -- you catch them & He will clean them.
Too many people believe you have to clean yourself up before you accept Christ.
Cleaning occurs after repentance.
We all come to the Lord dirty. We repent of our sins and ask God to live in our hearts. It is not until that occurs that He will start to clean us and change us.
In salvation, what do you mean by "cleansing"? If it is the new birth/regenerating work of the Spirit, of COURSE it must come first. God has to be first to act (since we are dead in sin and can't do ANY thing until regenerated).
Of course, that had NOTHING to do with man trying to "cleanse" himself.
JGrubbs is certainly correct in saying that repentance precedes cleansing, for repentance begins with a desire to be clean, at least of those things being repented of. But true and complete cleansing is realized only through faith in Christ and what He accomplished for us on the cross. When we place our faith in Christ to save us, he justifies us and begins to sanctify us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Our sanctification, however, is only realized as we yield ourselves to God and His work in us.
Ideally, the process of sanctification should be a short one as we come to know God and His Word, but we find that some Christians, such as the Corinthians Christians in the New Testament, are very prideful and arrogant and very slow to yield to the working of God in their lives. Other Christians, such as the Philippian Christians in the New Testament, begin immediately to yield themselves to the working of God in their lives and take on the nature of Christ much more rapidly than did the Corinthian Christians.
Those who are slow to yield to the working of God in their lives find themselves being more and more severely chastened by God and their lives are unfruitful. Some of these people respond to the chastening of the Lord by repenting and yielding themselves to God; others respond to the chastening of the Lord by turning away from Him. The choice, however, is always ours.
WOW very good something I finally agree with you about.
I am still confused though about what you REALLY believe about a Born Again Position in Christ once they get save?
I am not sure what you believe about salvation.
Do you think if you sin after you are a Christian you have to start over. Or do you believe if you decide to walk away you are no longer save, Or do you believe once saved ( not acting like a christian but really are one ) you are always saved ?
From your posting I have read I am still confused about what you believe
God does the drawing. Without that nothing would happen. Coming to Christ gets you clean. He does the cleaning, the regenerating, the rebirthing, the saving, ALL of the things which constitute salvation. It is not a distance you travel nor is it time spent traveling. The moment, the instant, the nanosecond that you respond to his drawing is when salvation occurs. Adam, by an act of his free will rejected God and God held him accountable for the outcome. Now man, by an act of his free will accepts Christ and God holds Himself accountable for the outcome.
If I read you right, I agree. I get so tired of the faith-repentance-regeneration sequence. Why can't they all happen simultaneously?
God initiates the desire to know Him, the Holy Spirit of God draws you to Christ, and Jesus saves you! You're saved from the wrath of God and therefore have peace with God (Rom. 5:1) then God "saves" you for the rest of your life, that is, He works in you saving you from the "power" of sin as you've already been saved from the "penalty" of sin.
And one day praise God, we'll be saved from the very presence of sin! Praise God!
I wonder. Are they necessarily mutually exclusive?
so isn't this essentially the "repentance" issue that has become such a big deal amongst some circles in recent years?
I think virtually everyone who responded agreed with each other when the question was put the way it was in the OP....good job! =)
Ive suspected that we all pretty much agree on it anyway, we are just saying the same thing in different ways.
Artimaeus I was agreeing with you so far till you said Adam by an act of his free will reject God and God held him accountable for the outcome.
Didn't God forgive Adam and Eve in Gen 3:20-24 when he clothed them in animals skins ( which in itself was shedding innocent blood for the remission of sins ) I always thought they were saved that even though they blew it they were forgiven and we will see them in Heaven.