Which Coming?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Aug 31, 2002.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    The Lord came to us FROM HEAVEN as a baby born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) He left 33 years later, and ascended back TO HEAVEN (Acts 1:9-12) WE all agree in the truth of His First Coming to us.

    But what is next?

    A 2nd coming in rapture followed by a 3rd coming 7 years later?

    ...or simply one more coming of the Lord; after the tribulation; in rapture and judgment; to establish His millennial reign upon the Earth?

    You read the scriptures that discuss His Coming. Is there a 2nd and a 3rd Coming of the Lord taught to us in scripture?

    1. I Corinthians 15:21-23 "For since by man cam death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His Coming".

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    2. I Thess 2:19 "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His Coming?".

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    3. I Thess 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    4. 1 Thess 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and reamin shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    5. I Thess 5:23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    6. 2 Thess 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    7. 2 Thess 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His Coming:"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    8. James 5:7-8 " Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the Coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the Coming of the Lord draweth nigh."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    9. 2 Peter 3:4, 10-12 "And saying, Where is the promise of His Coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noaise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the Coming of the day of God"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    10.1 John 2:28-3:2 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when He shall appear, we may confidence, and not be ashamed before him at His Coming. If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as he is."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    11. Revelation 1:7 "Behold, He Cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    12. Revelation 16:4b-17 "to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I Come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    13. Revelation 19:11-16 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    14. Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of man shall Come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man Coming in his kingdom."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    15. Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him, privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy Coming, and of the end of the world?"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    16. Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    17. Matthew 24:29-31 " Immediateky AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man Coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    18. Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    19. Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    20. Matthew 25:6 "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom Cometh; go ye out to meet him. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom Came: and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    21. Matthew 25:31 "When the son of man shall Come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    22. Mark 13:24 "But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man Coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    23. Mark 13:34 "For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servnats, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3d?

    24. Luke 17:24 "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    25. Luke 18:8 "Nevertheless when the Son of man Cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    26. Luke 21:25-28 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man Coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    27. Titus 2:13 " Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious Appearng of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    28. I Corinthians 1:7-8 "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall also confirm you unto the END, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    29. 2 Thess 1:7-10 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be Revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall Come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    30. I Peter 1:13 "Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the END for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the Revelation of Jesus Christ;"

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    31. I Peter 4:13 "But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be Revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    32. Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that Look for him shall he Appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    33. Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the Day of redemption."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    34. John 14:2-3 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you. I will Come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    35. Philippians 3:20-21 "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    36. I Thess 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    37. Psalm 50:3-5 "Our God shall Come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall Call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    38. Revelation 22:7 "Behold I Come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    39. Revelation 22:12 "And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    40. Revelation 22:20 "He which testifieth these things saith, Surley I Come quickly. Amen. Even so, Come, Lord Jesus."

    Which coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  2. HankD

    HankD
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    Dear DP,

    I'm with you on this one.

    I guess I could be called a "Last Day" tribulationist (to coin a phrase).

    John 6
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    Whatever and whenever this "Last Day" is, something is going to happen to both the saved and the unsaved.

    Anyway, whatever the details are before, during and after this Last Day, I'm trusting Him to work it all out, as I'm sure most if not all here are doing (I hope).

    HankD
     
  3. post-it

    post-it
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    The New Testament is skewed in the "after Death" and "end times" areas by the then common acceptance of some Greek Mythology, this influence is seen strongly in the concept of Hell, the Greek God Hades, and the general picture of Hell from the Greek view. This is why we have 2 very different views which run concurrent in the the Bible as a whole. The Greek view is that there will be torment or a waiting area (for the not so bad) in hell, with full awareness. The pure Christian view is that hell is nothing more than "the grave" with no awareness (dead). And that the unsaved will rise to be judged in the Last Day. The saved person is raised the last day of his life into heaven.

    last day, Last days, Last Day. End of a person's life, the end times, Judgement day for non-saved.

    [ September 01, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    "Last day" - it does not saying there will be another 1335 days after pretrib rapture. Last day means the very final day at the end of the world.

    HankD,

    Yes, you are right.

    Honest, I admit telling you, I am fail to see rapture will happen 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent in the Bible.

    Please can you find where verse saying rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the second advent in the Bible??

    I am still waiting for anyone to answer all of 40 questions on which coming.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    "Last day" - it does not saying there will be another 1335 days after pretrib rapture. Last day means the very final day at the end of the world.

    HankD,

    Yes, you are right.

    Honest, I admit telling you, I am fail to see rapture will happen 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent in the Bible.

    Please can you find where verse saying rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before the second advent in the Bible??

    I am still waiting for anyone to answer all of 40 questions on which coming.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. HankD

    HankD
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    Dear Post-it.

    Yes, I know many Christians hold this view and is popular among non-Baptists. To me however it seems an oversimplification and a misinterpretation of the Scripture.
    Let us take for instance the passages in John and in particular

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    It says "at the last day" (with the definite article "the") and not "on his last day", so I interpret this passage as pointing to another singular event "Last Day" which all will participate in.

    Dear DP,

    While I agree with you, I have no doubt that many here could indeed give you answers to your 40 questions.
    However it would take a great deal of time, energy and resource to determine the timing of these events according to the pre-tribulation point of view.
    It would take a big comittment with very little hope of a Return-On-Investment.
    Besides that, it probably wouldn't end well, but then again you never know.

    We can all rejoice (well almost all) that He will return Bodily and we will be resurrected by Him and so we shall ever be with the Lord.

    HankD
     
  7. post-it

    post-it
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    Then explain the thief on the cross that would be with Jesus in Heaven that night.

    Enough scripture tells us that we Christians will go directly to heaven. We do not have to wait in the grave as the unsaved will. Reading Rev. All the dead are raised from hell and the sea to be seen which are in the Book of life. There are no Christians who are found at this judgement, only the unsaved. This could be babies, mentally handicapped, old testament people who found God's grace and any other people that found his grace, such as those who never heard the Gospel. Then the other dead are judged by their deeds, these are the real bad guys/women and they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

    Saved Christians cannot ever die and be found dead in a grave as we have eternal life. We are judged by Christ at the moment we die and are found blameless.
     
  8. HankD

    HankD
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    Dear post-it,

    I will answer in this way. I have seen some of the "wild goose" chases (or is it wild geese chases) that answering your questions result in and I became weary of such (not yours in particular) here on the BB quite some time ago (however, I must confess to some enjoyment watching the geese and men chase each other and I occassionally lose control and join in).
    Must be the hunter-gatherer gene.

    You have your view and I have mine and we have both presented our case.

    Its better (IMO) to leave it that way.

    :D

    HankD

    [ September 01, 2002, 11:11 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    I am still waiting for anyone who will answer all of these 40 questions.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  10. Robert Nicholson

    Robert Nicholson
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    Brother deafposttrib:

    Your test of 40 questions is too long! :rolleyes: However, there is no greater truth and hope for the Christian then that Jesus is coming again!

    Where is the promise of his coming?

    John 14::3 "If I go and prepare a place for you I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am there you may be also"

    Acts 1:9-11 when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. While they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel; which said unto them Ye men of Galilee why stand you gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus shall come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven. In both of these cases the scripture is referring to his second coming. The scripture does not support a 3rd coming!!!

    A few contrasts:

    He left the mount of olives and he is coming back to the mount of olives! Zechariah 14:4

    He left in his glorious resurrection body and he will return in the same body.

    Only a few saw him leave the mount of olives, but when he comes again to the mount of olives every eye shall see him! Rev. 1:7

    At his first coming, he came to this earth in humility, in the form of a servant and at his second coming he comes as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in power and glory!

    What about those who are in Christ?

    Paul makes it clear in 1 Cor. 15:51-52 and in 1 Thess. 4:14-18 That at the last trump of God he is coming again personally and as he descends toward this earth the redeemed who have died in Christ will be raised in glorified bodies and we which have not died and are in Christ will be changed or translated into glorified bodies and together we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air! These were intended to be words of comfort for those who were saved and ready for the coming of the Lord.

    It does not end there! His glorified saints will share his glory as he descends to the mount of olives to rule and reign in righteousness. 2 Thess. 1:10

    The problem today is that we try to move things into tidy packages of time. However, when Christ comes time as we know is ended and eternity has begun.

    It appears that Satan who knows his time is short, would like to distract people and divide them into different camps on prophecy etc. and thereby hinder the gospel and the blessed hope that Christ is coming again.

    This is not some theory which we have been given to exercise our minds with, but a reality which is before us.

    The big question for all: Are you ready to go when Jesus comes?

    "Jesus is coming, is coming again
    Coming for those he has redeemed by his blood
    Coming to reign as the glorified Lord
    Jesus is coming again!

    Praise his worthy and precious name!
    Robert
     
  11. HankD

    HankD
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    ...and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
    2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
    3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
     
  12. eric_b

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    I think Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24 refer to the gathering of the elect for the battle of Armegeddon at the end of the Tribulation. The Rapture is refered to in 1Th 4:17 and in Rev 3:10 Christ promises to keep the faithful from "the hour of testing, the hour which is about to come on the whole world". It's difficult to understand a post-trib scenario in the light of this Scripture:

    1Th 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
    1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
    1Th 5:3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.

    If Christ is coming "like a thief in the night" while people are saying "peace and safety" how do you reconcile that with 7 years of tribulation? No one knows the day or the hour, but if you assume post-trib, you could just wait until you see the abomination and know that there are exactly 3 and a half years from His coming, and thieves in the night usually don't give 3 and a half year notices.

    Am I missing something? This is the area of theology that I'm probably least sure about (specifically the Rapture, I know pre-millenialism is true), so I'm pretty open minded to hear other viewpoints.

    Eric

    [ September 03, 2002, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: eric_b ]
     
  13. hrhema

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    Most pre-tribulation people believe that the Rapture is not the second coming of Christ. That both times Christ has and will come he was and will be literally here on Earth.

    The rapture to most is the time Jesus will appear in the clouds to remove his church from the Earth. He will not touch the Earth. It will happen very swiftly matter of fact faster than a twinkle of the eye.

    I don't understand the thinking of those who say the rapture will happen when he returns the second time. The bible says he will come back on a white horse bringing the Saints with him who also will be riding white horses and robed in white. IS someone going to tell me that Jesus will be descending and there will be all these horses and robes waiting in the air that we will just jump on the horses and change into the robes and come like johnny come lately behind Jesus?
     
  14. Daniel David

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    Not to mention that Jesus said He would take us to heaven (John 14:3). The posttribbers ignore that in favor of amill leanings about the last day and such.
     
  15. Bible-belted

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  16. DeafPosttrib

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    Hello!

    I know Acts 1:9-11 very well.

    Do Acts 1:9-11 saying that Christ will come again twice??

    I know Zech 14:4 very well.

    Does Zech 14:4 saying Jesus' feet will touch on Mt. Olivet twice??

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture or wrath. It is talking about temptations. You have to read John 17:15 is fits with Rev. 3:10. Jesus asked his Father in heaven, that He not take Christians out of the world(sound like rapture), but to keep(protect or guard) them from the evil(trials, worldly).

    Also, 1 Cor. 10:13 is very clearly fit with Rev. 3:10. It tells us, that God is not allow us to face greater temptations, God knows how to care us, because he knows our weakeness. But it does not mean that we do not have temptation, of course all of us always face tamptations in our life, that we are able to bear it by escape from being fall into sin.

    Good example - Joseph in Gen. 39:7-13. He faced master's wife(earlier I posted it- master's daughter, I made mistake) tempted him for sex. He refused. She tried to tempted him several times. When she touched his garment, he fled so immediately.

    Same with 1 Cor. 10:13 tells us, that we have to carry temptations, but we can escape from it from being fall into sin.

    Rev. 2:10 refers with Rev. 3:10. Rev. 2:10 tells us, that a Christian face perscutions to be suffering continue or endure till death, then receive the reward crown of life.

    Same with Rev. 3:10-11 telling us, we are facing temptations, that we are endure with it, not give up, and we will receive the crown of life.

    James 1:12 fits with Rev. 2:10 & 3:10-11 too. It tells us, that we should endure with the temptations till we die, then we will receive the crown of life according to the Lord's promise.

    James 1:2 - "My brethren, count it all JOY when ye fall into divers temptations."

    It tells us, that we should be joy when we are face temptations, trials, persecutions.

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture and wrath. It is talking about temptations.

    Church of Philadelphia in John's time, they were already face temptations. But many Christians throughout the church history, they already face temptations. Today, we as Christians are facing temptations. During Great Tribulation, Christians will face temptations.

    We do not wait for "hour of temptation" - 7 year of Tribulation period. It is already happening to many Christians through the church history.

    Matthew Henry's Commentary, his comment on Rev. 3:10: " By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecution."

    I agree with him.

    Rev. 3:10 is not talk about rapture or wrath. It is talking about temptations.

    Honest, I admit telling you, I am fail to see rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent in the Bible.

    Please show me where a verse saying rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE second advent in the Bible.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    I know Acts 1:9-11 very well.

    Do Acts 1:9-11 saying that Christ will come again twice??

    I know Zech 14:4 very well.

    Does Zech 14:4 saying Jesus' feet will touch on Mt. Olivet twice??

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture or wrath. It is talking about temptations. You have to read John 17:15 is fits with Rev. 3:10. Jesus asked his Father in heaven, that He not take Christians out of the world(sound like rapture), but to keep(protect or guard) them from the evil(trials, worldly).

    Also, 1 Cor. 10:13 is very clearly fit with Rev. 3:10. It tells us, that God is not allow us to face greater temptations, God knows how to care us, because he knows our weakeness. But it does not mean that we do not have temptation, of course all of us always face tamptations in our life, that we are able to bear it by escape from being fall into sin.

    Good example - Joseph in Gen. 39:7-13. He faced master's wife(earlier I posted it- master's daughter, I made mistake) tempted him for sex. He refused. She tried to tempted him several times. When she touched his garment, he fled so immediately.

    Same with 1 Cor. 10:13 tells us, that we have to carry temptations, but we can escape from it from being fall into sin.

    Rev. 2:10 refers with Rev. 3:10. Rev. 2:10 tells us, that a Christian face perscutions to be suffering continue or endure till death, then receive the reward crown of life.

    Same with Rev. 3:10-11 telling us, we are facing temptations, that we are endure with it, not give up, and we will receive the crown of life.

    James 1:12 fits with Rev. 2:10 & 3:10-11 too. It tells us, that we should endure with the temptations till we die, then we will receive the crown of life according to the Lord's promise.

    James 1:2 - "My brethren, count it all JOY when ye fall into divers temptations."

    It tells us, that we should be joy when we are face temptations, trials, persecutions.

    Rev. 3:10 is not talking about rapture and wrath. It is talking about temptations.

    Church of Philadelphia in John's time, they were already face temptations. But many Christians throughout the church history, they already face temptations. Today, we as Christians are facing temptations. During Great Tribulation, Christians will face temptations.

    We do not wait for "hour of temptation" - 7 year of Tribulation period. It is already happening to many Christians through the church history.

    Matthew Henry's Commentary, his comment on Rev. 3:10: " By keeping the gospel they are prepared for the trial; and the same divine grace that has made them fruitful in times of peace will make them faithful in TIMES of persecution."

    I agree with him.

    Rev. 3:10 is not talk about rapture or wrath. It is talking about temptations.

    Honest, I admit telling you, I am fail to see rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent in the Bible.

    Please show me where a verse saying rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE second advent in the Bible.

    Have a nice day!

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  18. postrib

    postrib
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    I agree.

    I believe it's the same gathering of the elect as Matthew 24:31.

    I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    "The Son of man coming in the clouds...
    with a great sound of a trumpet,
    and they shall gather together his elect"
    (Matthew 24:30-31).

    "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
    with the trump of God...
    shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
    or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
    or two different raptures.

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

    Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    "When they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them" (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

    I believe this refers to the destruction that will come upon the unsaved at the end of the tribulation and at the 2nd coming.

    At the death of the two witnesses, at the end of the 42-month reign of the Antichrist, I believe the unsaved will rejoice and make merry and give gifts to one another (Revelation 11:10), thinking that now all is peace and safety, that now the Antichrist can rule unimpeded without any more plagues coming on the earth (Revelation 11:6). But little will they know that sudden destruction is about to come upon them with the 7 vials of God's wrath and Jesus' coming:

    "Thy wrath is come.. that thou shouldest... destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18).

    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

    "Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

    Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

    Note that the only thing the Bible says happens "in the twinkling of an eye" is the changing of the bodies of the living Christians into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus' coming at the rapture includes much more than that. It includes first the descent of Jesus from heaven with the saints who died (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), then the sounding of the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the resurrection of these saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16), then the changing of living believers into immortal bodies, and finally the gathering together of all the resurrected saints, and all those changed in the twinkling of an eye, into the clouds where Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

    I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that no verse says the rapture takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

    Note that Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

    Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

    I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

    I believe that a literal earthly reign of Christ is taught in passages such as Revelation 20:4-6; Revelation 5:10; Revelation 2:26-29; Zechariah 14:16-18; Isaiah 19:21-25; Isaiah 66:19-21; and Micah 4:3-4.
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Hello!

    I have not see anyone post on these 40 questions of which coming for near 2 months.

    Are all 40 questions difficult to answer?

    Pretribulationism is a theory, it have no foundation or fundamental doctrine.

    Honest, I FAIL to see rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent in the Bible. You have to show me where a verse in the Bible saying rapture will occur 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier before second advent.

    Do you believe pretribulationism is a sound right doctrine? If you think so, then you have to show me the solid evidence verses to support pretribulationism.

    I am waiting to hear anyone to answer all of 40 questions on which coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  20. BrianT

    BrianT
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    How did I miss such an interesting thread??? :D

    Preach the Word, where is "heaven" mentioned in John 14:3? Posttribbers "ignore" it because it isn't even there! [​IMG]
     

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