Which Coming?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Apr 21, 2004.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    We all agree Lord's first advent, he came to earth from heaven, as a babe born in Bethlehem - Micah 5:2. He left earth 33 years later, and ascend back to heaven - Acts 1:9-12.

    But what is next? A 2nd coming in rapture follow by a 3rd coming 7 years later?

    You read the scriptures that discuss His coming. Is their a 2nd and a 3rd Coming of the Lord taught to us in scriptures?

    1) 1 Corinthains 15:21-23 "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His Coming."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    2) 1 Thess 2:19 "For what is our hope, or joy, or drown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His Coming?"

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    3) 1 Thess 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    4) 1 Thess 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are alseep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    5) 1 Thess 23 "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    *************************************************

    6) 2 Thess 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? HIs 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    7) James 5:7-8 "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the Coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the Coming of the Lord draweth nigh."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    8) 2 Peter 3:4, 10-12 "And saying, Where is the promise of His Coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the Coming of the day of God."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    **********************************************

    9) 1 John 2:28-3:2 "And now, little children, abide in him; that when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at His Coming. If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, When He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    *****************************************

    10) Revelation 1:7 "Behold, He Cometh with clouds: and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    *****************************************

    11) Revelation 16:14b-17 "to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I Come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel oured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ********************************************

    12) Revelation 19:11-16 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    **********************************************

    13) Matthew 16:27-28 "For the Son of man shall Come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man Coming in his kingdom."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    **********************************************

    14) Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of Thy Coming, and of the end of the world?"

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    15) Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    16) Matthew 24:29-31 "Immdiately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man Coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    **********************************************

    16) Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the Coming of the Son of manbe."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    17) Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the Coming of the Son of man be."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    18) Matthew 25:6 "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridgegroom Cometh; go ye out to meet him. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom Came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    19) Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of man shall Come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    20) Mark 13:24-27 "But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man Coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    21) Mark 13:34-36 "For the Son of Man is a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authroity to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch yet therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house Cometh, even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest Coming suddenly he find you sleeping."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    22) Luke 17:24 "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the ohter part under heaven; so shall also the Son of Man be in his day."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    23) Luke 18:8 "Neverthless when the Son of man Cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ************************************************

    24) Luke 21:25-28 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man Coming in a cloud with power and great glory, And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    25) Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious Appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    26) 1 Corinthians 1:7-8 "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    27) Acts 1:9-11 "And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This SAME Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so Come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    28) John 14:1-3 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will Come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    29) 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be Revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall Come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) In that Day."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    ***********************************************

    30) Revelation 22:20 "He testifieth these things saith, Surely I Come quickly. Amen. Even so, Come, Lord Jesus."

    Which Coming of the Lord is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    I could have given plenty veres from the Bible describe Lord's coming. But 30 lists are enough for me to give them to you. Please ponder of these, which coming is this one? His 2nd or 3rd?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  2. Dave Taylor

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    Nice collection of scriptures Phil. You did a great way of gathering them together, and showing that we are all looking forward to the one, singluar, scriptural Coming of the Lord.

    Alot of folks have bought into the idea that there are going to be two more comings of the Lord; but I agree with the scriptures you cited; and will look for the one that Jesus taught us about; the one when He will come and gather us from the uttermost parts of the Earth to Himself.

    There is no '3rd Coming' of the Lord found in the scriptures.

    See you at the rapture/resurrect that occurs at "the Coming of the Lord"


    "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord " I Thess 4:15

    One future Coming.

    "the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Mark 13:26

    One future Coming,
    ...just like Jesus and Paul taught; where our Saviour returns, and gather us unto Himself as He returns in Glory and Power!
     
  3. donnA

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    1Thes 4: 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds meet the Lord in the air.

    In the rapture He isn't coming to earth, He is coming on the clouds and will only be in the air. This is not as some have accused a beleif in 3 comings.

    1Thes 1: 10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

    Rev 6: 17For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
    Shows us the day of wrath is the tribulation, so according to 1Thes1:10 Jesus saves us from wrath, by coming in the clouds(not a coming to earth) and removing those who are His.
     
  4. Dave Taylor

    Dave Taylor
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    Donna wrote:
    Donna,
    You missed the verse just prior to verse 17 that shows it is the coming of the Lord that the rapture is associated with.


    "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that
    we which are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven...Then
    we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord " I Thess 4:15

    It is the same group ("we who are alive and remain"), who both are awaiting unto the Coming of the Lord; and awaiting unto the rapture.

    Paul couldn't have made it any clearer in his writing above.

    As for wrath, God never pours out wrath upon His faithful children, only upon the wicked. He will preserve His children who "are alive and remain unto THE COMING OF THE LORD"...it doesn't require Him to remove them from the planet to protect them.

    The wrath to come that believers are delivered form is eternal hell and damnation and separation from Christ; not from tribulations upon the Earth. Believers are often subject to tribulation and trial while upon the earth...just not the target of God's wrath.
     
  5. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    DeafPosttrib
    there is only two comings. One has happened and one is still to come. Sadly many, many people have confused the rapture with a coming. The rapture is not the Lord coming but the church going. He calls from heaven. He never returns to earth for the rapture. There is no third coming.
     
  6. donnA

    donnA
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    Well, thats about the best I've seen anyone say it. Can I keep that and use it?
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    freeatlast,

    Pretrib teaches, when rapture occurs, Christians shall LEAVE earth and going into the heaven with the Lord. Alsom they teaching, when the rapture occurs, all Christians are G-O-N-E!

    There is much misunderstanding about the coming of the Lord.

    Firstly, the word, 'rapture' does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

    I learned that the true definition of rapture means emotion, high feelings. In 1828 Webster Dictionary of 'rapture' defines, transport; violence of a pleasing passion; extreme joy or pleasure; enthisiasm.

    Keep in mind, word, 'rapture' was never teaching on the coming of the Lord in the churches in the past centuries. Rapture was not a popular word for Eschatology doctrine in the past centuries. Early Christians understood, that our gathering together shall be occur AT Christ's coming. No one saying our gathering together separate from Lord's coming in the past centuries.

    Rapture was become popular among Christians during in the late of 19th Century.

    Bible never saying Christians shall leave earth at Lord's coming. Neither, Bible saying there shall be Z-E-R-O saint present on the earth after the rapture.

    1 Thess 4:16-17 say, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be cuahgt up together with them in the clouds, to M-E-E-T the Lord in the air: and so shall we EVER be with the Lord."

    Bible never saying that we shall leave earth. It tells us, when Christ comes, we all shall MEEEEEEET the Lord, WHERE the Lord goes, we shall be with the Lord forever and ever.

    I will continue discuss on 1 Thess 4:16-17 little moment, you said,

    I want to show you 1 Thess 4:16 again one more time.

    1 Thess 4:16 - "For the Lord himself shall D-E-S-C-E-N-D. Decend simple mean down opposite of up. The context of 1 Thess. 4:15-17 do not saying when AFTER Christ descend from heaven to gathering us together, THEN return UP back to heaven again.

    Bible teaches us, when Christ COMES, we all shall meet Christ, WHERE He goes, we shall be with Him forever and ever.

    In the same way, Christ shall COME to earth with his angels for the purpose to gathering all nations to judge us. That what the harvest for.

    I ask you a question: Please show me where one verse in the Bible saying, Rapture will be occur 3 1/2 years or 7 years earlier BEFORE Lord's coming??

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Sister DonnA -- Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    Of course, often, many pretribbers saying there is no 3rd coming in the Bible. I agree with them. However, all pretribbers saying Rapture is NOT at the second coming.

    Why not?

    Early Church never teaching on two stages or phases of Christ's coming. Early Church believed there shall be the only one future coming of Christ at the end of the world.

    No one teaching on two stages of Christ's coming till 19th Century. John Darby developed new doctrine, taught on two phases of Christ's coming, it called, 'pretribulationism'. During 1850's and 1860's, in America, many churches adopted Darby's new teaching of two stages of Christ's coming called, 'pretribulationism'.

    They followed Darby's teaching instead follow what the Bible saying.

    There is no scripture in the Bible saying about the two stages of Christ's coming. Early Christians understood what the Bible saying about the coming. They believed our gathering together shall be at Lord's coming same time at the end of the world.

    Bible never saying that gathering together("rapture") separates from Lord's coming. Bible teaches us, our gathering together shall be AT Christ's coming. Believe and accept what God's Word saying.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  10. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    Well, thats about the best I've seen anyone say it. Can I keep that and use it? </font>[/QUOTE]Donna you are more then welcome to pass it on in any way you feel might be of help for someone to understand this. God bless and thank you for asking.
     
  11. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "However, all pretribbers saying Rapture
    is NOT at the second coming."

    You have been talking to me, a pretrib for over 3 years.
    You know that is NOT what "all" pretribbers say.
    I say:
    The Rapture isat the second coming
    The Rapture/Resurrection takes place the same DAY as the
    the Second Advent. This Day includesthe 7-year long day
    between the two events: Rapture/resurrection and Second Advent.

    ----------------------------

    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    DPT: "There is no scripture in the Bible saying
    about the two stages of Christ's coming"

    You are correct [​IMG] there is no scripture saying:
    "two stages of Christ's coming".
    You have to count by yourself. Good luck counting to two ;)

    ----------------------------

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The timeline according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The timeline according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    [​IMG]
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    You really twisted what Christ actually saying in the chronological order about the end of the world in Matthew chapter 24.

    You always often saying Matt 24:31 separates from verse 29-30, called, verse 31, 'pretrib' gathering.

    Not what Christ actually saying it.

    I do agree with you, that verse 31 speaks of rapture. Most pretribbers would not agree with you on verse 31 speaks of rapture, you know that.

    Also, you keep on break the hermenuetic rule - intepreting in contextually.

    The context of Matthew 24:29-31 telling us, our gathering together shall be AFTER the tribulation. In other word, our gathering together CANNOT be occur yet TILL Christ comes first.

    There is none word 'before' find anywhere in the context of Matthew chapter 24 that Christ will come back before tribulation. Obivously, Christ tells us, He is coming back AFTER tribulation = Matt. 24:29-31.

    John does not saying word, 'resurrection' in Rev. 4:1-2. John tells us, in his own experince of the vision, that himself was called up by the angel, to show him to see the future things, same with Rev. 17:1; Rev. 21:9 tell us, John was called by the angel, to show him the things. Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9 do nothing with rapture/resurrection. Also, there is no hint in Rev. 4:1-2 saying that Christ shall decend out of heaven, neither, it saying there is a coming of Christ in Rev. 4:1-2 either.

    Some pretribbers intepreting 'falling away' means rapture. The reason why they saying it, because they follow Dr. Schuyler English's intepreting of 'falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3 means the departure of the saints is rapture. That why they follow his teaching since 1950's to now.

    In Greek word of 'falling away' never support the idea meaning of rapture. 'Falling away' of 2 Thess 2:3 in Greek word is 'apostasia'. It defines, depart from faith, depart from truth. All dictionaries on 'falling away' never support the idea meaning of rapture, you know that.

    Fall is opposite of UP. 'Caught UP' opposite of down.

    Apostle Paul tells us, that the DAY SHALL NOT COME till we must see the first of two things to come to pass- apostasy and the revealed of Antichrist. So, therefore, 2 Thess 2:1-3 cannot be pretrib, it is very clear telling us, that we must see apostasy come to pass first and THEN, we shall face Antichrist revealed.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    DPT: "Early Church never teaching on two stages
    or phases of Christ's coming."

    If so, then who wrote the New Testament from which i
    prove the two stages or two phases of Christ's coming?
    Oops, self contradiction in what you say.
    The New Testament was written by "the Early Church".

    DPT: "Early Church believed there shall be the only one future
    coming of Christ at the end of the world."

    Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!
    You believe it, we believe it, everybody believes it.
    We just vary on the DAY during which the ONE coming
    falls. I use the Daniel 9:27 day.

    Ed delineates the Holy Trinity:

    ONE:
    1a) God the Father
    1b) God the Son, Messiah Yeshua
    1c) God the Holy Spirit

    TWO:
    1a) God the Father
    2a) God the Son, Messiah Yeshua
    2b) God the Holy Spirit

    THREE:
    1) God the Father
    2) God the Son, Messiah Yeshua
    3) God the Holy Spirit

    Description ONE shows that the three are truly one.
    Description TWO shows that there are one in heaven
    and two on earth (in seperate times)
    Description THREE shows the three persons of the Godhead.

    All three lists are correct.
    So it doesn't really bother me when you list:

    1) First coming to be resurrected
    2) Second coming to Rapture the gentile church
    3) Third coming to Defeat the Antichrist and set
    up a physical Millinnial Kingdom on a physical earth

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    DPT: "You really twisted ... "

    I described my Spirit given understanding of the
    Holy Scripture. I use the same scriputure you
    use. Amazingly enough, the three main scriptures
    i used to "prove" the pretriublation rapture
    I did not use 20 years ago.

    I've been arguing with posties for over 40 years,
    you know. Thirty years ago posties said, the two
    phases of the Second Coming that you talk about:
    the Rapture/resurrection and the Second Advent
    to defeat the Antichrist are NOT mentioned in the
    scripture.

    I found them both in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 (nKJV):

    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our
    Lord Jesus Christ

    and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

    In one verse this speaks of the two phases.

    Then about ten years ago, posties said: "Fine, but
    why didn't John mentione the Rapture in Revelation?
    Didn't he read Paul's letters?"

    Then i found out that the Rapture is mentioned by
    type in Revelation 4:1 when John gets yanked up into
    heaven. Interesting, right between the Revelation 2& 3
    description of the age of the Gentiles and the
    Revelation 4-19 description of the Tribulation
    Period Judgement.

    So then about 3 or 4 years ago, postie folks were saying,
    "well, how come Jesus never said anything about
    the Rapture? Hadn't he read Paul yet [​IMG] "
    That is when i found out this:
    ----------------------------
    In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:

    (in the order asked):
    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    3. What is the sign of the end of age?

    Jesus answers these questions in
    Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
    some parables.

    Here are the answers of Jesus in the
    order the questions were asked:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    Here is a summary of the answers
    in the order in which events will occur:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Soon, it was in 70AD

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    No signs preceeding the end of the age

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    The Sign of His coming will be the
    Tribulation period.


    Recall the Greek language in which this
    Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
    did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
    So many ands, buts, and other connectors
    give the outline. I believe the major
    outline to be:

    1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
    Matthew 24:4-14

    2. What is the sign of His coming?
    Matthew 24:15-30

    3. What is the sign of the end of age?
    Matthew 24:31-44

    The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
    Rapture/resurrection which ends the
    current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
    etc&gt;)

    Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
    church age even up to this time.
    Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.

    ------------------------
    Ain't it all neat ;)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs
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    Pretribulationism sees two separate parousias (comings) of Christ, one when He comes "for His Church" and the second, when He comes "with His Church," a grammatical position with not one verse of substantiation or explanation. One second coming of Christ (parousia) is referred to, never two, never spoken of in the plural, and never differentiated by any writer, including Christ. As important as the return of Christ is, if two separate parousias were the teachings of Christ and Paul, there would be no confusion in this matter. What's even worse, the proof text of Christ coming "with" the Church is a singular passage given in Revelation 19. At the great and final battle of Armageddon, "the armies which are heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him [Christ] on white horses" (v.14). Simply because they are wearing white linen clothing some assume Christ's army must be the "bride of Christ," even though the angels are seen wearing the exact same clothing (Rev. 15:6). Both Christ and Paul taught that it would be His angels that accompany Christ in battle during the day of the Lord (Mt. 16:27; 2 Th. 1:7-8). The idea that the new bride of Christ is to, immediately after the marriage ceremony described earlier in the chapter, follow her bridegroom into battle stretches one's imagination, especially in the light of the other clear teachings of Scripture. The prewrath view sees only one parousia of Christ, at a time that perfectly harmonizes every passage.

    SOURCE
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    Church does not limited to the Gentiles only. Church is make up for all individuals of nations either Jew or Gentile, whoseover believe in Jesus Christ, they are belong to Christ's.

    You saying there is third coming, then, that means Christ shall come like as "yo-yo's" ???

    You often intepreting 2 Thess 2:1 on word, 'and' as verse describe into two different events.

    You intepreting "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" is second advent. You intepreting "our gathering together to Him" is rapture before tribulation period.

    Apostle Paul never saying on verse there are two different events of 7 year tribulation period, neither it saying about gap time.

    Our gathering together cannot be occur yet TILL Christ comes first - 1 Thess. 4:15.

    Apostle Paul is right, he tells us, that he beseeched them to understanding about the time of Christ's coming, when Christ shall come, then our gathering together unto him. Obivously, our gathering together shall be occur by follow at Christ's coming same time.

    Pretrib saying 'church' is gone and not appear anywhere from Revelation chapter 4 to 19, prove that it is rapture before tribulation period begins.

    Apostle John does not saying that he saw "church" appears up in the heaven in between Revelation 4 to 19 either.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  18. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    NetPublicist,

    Myself was pretrib before at the first place. I left pretrib camp in 1992. I became pre-wrath for 8 years.

    Pre-wrath doctrine does not bother me at all. I have no problem with it. I agree with them, that they believe the Church will face persecutions and tribulations under the Antichrist's reign.

    But, I have disagree with pre-wrath about the timing of Christ's coming.

    Firstly, I agree with pre-wrath teaches that Christ shall come at rapture during after 6th seal broken. That is correct. Even, many posttribbers believe we shall be gathering together after the sixth seal broken connect with Matt. 24:29-31.

    But I have some disagree with pre-wrath about the timing of Christ's coming.

    I do AGREE with pre-wrath teaches that the Church shall never suffer the wrath of God - 1 Thess. 5:9.

    Wrath and tribulaiton are different meaning.

    Wrath is for the unrighteousness people who reject Christ, and sinned against Christ, will suffer punish by God, send them to everlasting fire.

    We are appointed for tribulation - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, because Christ suffered on the cross, so, therefore, we ought follow Christ's example - Luke 9:23 and 1 Peter 2:21.

    Pre-wrath borrows leftover from pretrib on the two stages of the second coming.

    Pre-wrath believes rapture will be occur sometime during in the last part of seven year of tribulation period or Daniel 70th week, between 6 months to 1 1/2 years apart of rapture and second coming.

    Does the Bible actually teaching on the tow stages of the second coming? Silence.

    Let you know, I do read Marvin Rosenthal and Robert Kampen books. I still have them in my library. I respect them very well. I do disagree with them. But, I have nothing against them, because I agree with them, that they believe the Church must face persecutions and tribulations under the Antichrist first before rapture comes.

    Pretribulationism have more serious problems and flaws than pre-wrath does.

    Both pre-wrath and posttrib are more closely agreement together about Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    I forget add one thing to tell you.

    I was pre-wrath for 8 years, then I became posttrib 4 years ago.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  20. JGrubbs

    JGrubbs
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    I was raised to believe in the Pre-trib rapture. But reading the Bible has given me many questions about the end-times and the rapture. A friend of my has recommended that I read Marvin Rosenthal's The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. I haven't read the book yet, but I have read about the Pre-Wrath viewpoint online.

    I agree with Robert Van Kampen 100% when he said, "Those who teach pretribulationism run a big risk by telling believers that this does not concern them." He goes on to say, "We have such an overwhelming concern for the Church today. We are upset about what is being taught because the teaching of Christ is so clear concerning the persecution the Church will undergo before Christ returns, and the cost will be so high to those who are unprepared."

    Pretribulationism, if it is wrong, will result in the untold agony of innocent Christians who have believed it, on the other hand, if the prewrath view is wrong, it has only helped make Christians more alert and watchful for the return of Christ through holy living.
     

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