Which do you trust, God or science?

God can not lie but he can be misunderstood, especially by those without a formal education in biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. And very many people confuse the sin of presumption with the virtue of faith.

 

I read that same Chicken tract ! The trouble is that Jack Chick had a bigger imagination than Ray Bradbury.

 

It seems proper that if you are the one making claims of others having 'no formal education' that you should be the one who should state your own educational achievements and degrees. Remember, you stated this earlier: "Do you all suppose that it is just a coincidence that those are the most critical of scientists are the very people who have the least amount of formal education in biology, geology and astrophysics?" and also this: "Do you all suppose that it is just a coincidence that those who are the most critical of learned and educated views of Genesis are the very people who have the least amount of formal education in Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics?". It has been stated here before that you (Craigbythesea) need to back up your statements with facts, not conjecture or opinion.

If it is a battle of boasting about one's own educational credits, then you first. I insist!

I guess that's an answer.

 

Posted by Craigbythesea: God can not lie but he can be misunderstood, especially by those without a formal education in biblical exegesis and hermeneutics.

Wrong! God is the one that gives understanding to His word. A person can study God's Word and be just as settled on it's content as anyone else. We have the same Holy Spirit and God promises we can know the truth and the truth will make us free. You are right that God's word can be misunderstood. I think it is by those not really seeking the truth.

Posted by Craigbythesea:"I read that same Chicken tract ! The trouble is that Jack Chick had a bigger imagination than Ray Bradbury."

Are you saying it is untrue? If it is it still doesn't change the fact that God's word is plain and can be understood by anyone saved seeking truth.

 

God's word can be understood by everyone, saved or not. The trouble is, most people, saved or not, understand it incorrectly. The study and teaching of Paul's Epistle to the Romans has been the focus of my life's work for more than 25 years. I have studied hundreds of volumes on this epistle (and most of those volumes are in my personal library) and I can state with a reasonable degree of authority that the Epistle to the Romans is neither plain nor correctly understood in its entirety by very many people. The Epistle to the Hebrew and The Revelation of Jesus Christ are no more plain and no more correctly understood. The Book of Genesis has been the subject of intense study for more than 200 years by hundreds of scholars specializing in that book of the Bible, and for anyone to say that the meaning of it in its entirety is plain and easy to understand only proves that those making such claims don’t know what they are talking about.

In my teaching experience I have found that many people who believe that they have read the Bible have in fact read into the Bible what they have been taught it says, and so to them the Bible is perfectly clear. However, to those who actually read it for themselves, it is not so perfectly clear. And those of us who study the Bible in its original languages and the languages, customs, beliefs and social structures of its original recipients, we find that the more we study, the more there is yet to learn, and exponentially so at that.

 

Posted by Craigbythesea:"God's word can be understood by everyone, saved or not. The trouble is, most people, saved or not, understand it incorrectly.

You have NO biblical basis for making that statement!

I will give you that there are so many religions based on the bible that are wrong. Obviously interpretation is lacking.

Are those people truly seeking truth or their comfort level?

I submit to you that God PROMISES that we can know his Word as long as we truly seek truth. It doesn't say we all need degrees. Many are not in the position to go to college. The word of God is not exclusive to the highly educated.

No matter how educated or uneducated there will always be more to learn. So, we are all in the same boat.

 

"Why are the evolutionists ignoring my paradox?

I will repeat it for the fifth time:

A) If you believe in an omnipotent God, then you must place the supernatural variables into the creation (at least as a possibility). Ignoring it makes for bad science, if you believe in your heart that God exists and is all powerful.

B) You do not believe in an omnipotent God and therefore everything has to be naturalistic, so therefore science without supernatural variables is good science. (to you)"
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I don't believe your two choices are very productive. We apparently have no information from observation of the natural world as to what role if any God had in the creation. There is ample reason to believe that science works best if the supernatural causes are not a part of it. That does not necessarily mean that I don't believe that God is not omnipotent. For instance God could choose not to intervene at all, whether or not she is omnipotent.

 

"1 Tim. 2:11. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
12. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
13. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
14. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. (NASB, 1995)"
...................................................

Diane, I am very much interested in whether or not you accept the plain reading of the above or not. Do you think that the above has any bearing on a woman teaching via this Baptist Board? I am not claiming that this reference requires that you be silent but will simply advance the idea that some might see it that way.

 

No one’s ignoring you, it’s obvious!
That is why many early on have said that “Science or God presents a false dichotomy”.

Scientific explanations can’t begin without the foundation of an orderly and understandable universe. Science explains “How” phenomena occur. To say “God did it” is resorting to a supernatural explanation. The problem with this explanation is that it leaves us with a “God of the gaps” explanation. It doesn’t further our knowledge. It’s outside of the box.

Statement #1 is actually a big debate among God-believing scientists. The Intelligent Design proponents use the term “theistic science” in opposition to the extreme ‘atheistic naturalism’ and a less extreme ‘methodological naturalism’ (excluding God from consideration).

BTW Ben, If you are concerned about a woman teaching for having authority over you, you should only post in the "Men's Forum".
If you're interested in exploring the topic: Should 'a woman must keep silent' apply to the BaptistBoard, you should open another thread.

Rob

 

I am not concerned with Diane's posting nor do I wish to discourage it. But her comment is relevent in this thread to show that perhaps she does not always accept every verse in the bible as a literal truth. If she can harmonize her activity with that particular part of the bible, it is fine with me. It does seem that a plain and literal reading of the text might produce a bit of a conflict. A strict adherance to the bible in this case would seem to mean that she should not question a christian man's interpretation of Genesis, even if it is a non-literal interpretation. I do not contend that this is my opinion but only that a reasonable fundamentalist, wishing to adhere strictly to biblical teachings, might come to that conclusion.

 

Forgive me for not answering earlier. We lost power here in Georgia until after noon today and I just saw your question.

No. The Baptist Board is a discussion board and not a church. Webmaster would surely agree with me since he's chosen me as a board administrator.


IN CHURCH, I will not sit under a woman teaching if men are present, I would not stay in a church with women deacons. I am not under submission to ALL men but to my husband (of almost 35 years who is also a member here) so our discussions do not fit this criteria.

I would guess that I'm older than most of you.

 

Reading back a few pages, apparently Craig believes anyone who does not agree wiht hom that God is a liar, He did not create as He said He did in Gen.1 is ignorant.
Now really, is that called for to call people ignorant for beleiving God?
Do you really think this is a christian act to call people ignorant?

 

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

BTW Ben, I'm SBC and saved for almost 46 years. I'd suggest most fundamentalists would freak if they knew you'd refered to this blue jean wearing, NKJV mama as a fundie.

 

God claims He created, if His claims are correct, then evolution is a lie.

Genesis 1
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness £was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
6Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
9Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13So the evening and the morning were the third day.
14Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” 21So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over £all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Ro.1: 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

1Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Scripture comes from God, if any of it is not true then God is a liar. God Himself as we see from the above verses claims to have created everything. Is is not man you are calling a liar, but God. And you are accepting the testimony of unsaved, corrupt man, who seeks to prove God does not exsist word for it, over God, whom you call Lord. This is shameful.
And if I'm to be called iognorant for believing God, then so be it.(and not just me who is called ignotant, but all those who beleive God when He says He created.) But I'm shocked it is allowed to happen on this christian board who usually sticks pretty closely to scripture.

I'm not sure where the idea that anyone, unbeliever included can understand scripture all the same as a beleiver. That just isn't biblical, and it seems someone is having a hard time understanding scripture themselves.

 

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith." 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Greek Word: Kaqoravw
Transliterated Word: kathorao
to see thoroughly, perceive clearly, understand

 

Let me rephrase: As more fossils became available, it was found that the fossil evidence did not match what evolution predicted. Therefore, the theory of evolution has changed in an attempt to be more in line with reality.

BTW, you mentioned that to disagree with evolution is to disagree with thousands of scientists. Well, to believe in God period, is to disagree with thousands of scientists as well.

 

He who knows he who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool, shun him;
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child, teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep, wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is wise, follow him.

(An Old Persian Proverb)

</font>[/QUOTE]OK, consider yourself shunned!

 

"Let me rephrase: As more fossils became available, it was found that the fossil evidence did not match what evolution predicted. Therefore, the theory of evolution has changed in an attempt to be more in line with reality."

Which is sort of why you do research. Do you really think that we should reject everything that increases its knowledge with time? No doctors? No computers?

Second, the main prediction was that intermediates would be found. This happened. The difference is that the pattern of evolution was more complex than first imagined. But with limited fossils, the details of the mechanisms were not as obvious. As more data became available, those details were filled in.

"BTW, you mentioned that to disagree with evolution is to disagree with thousands of scientists. Well, to believe in God period, is to disagree with thousands of scientists as well."

Finally, the more you know about the subject the less likely you are to deny the science. There are very few biologists who would disagree with evolution. There are very few astronomers who do not accept a 13.7 billion year old universe. There are very few geologists who deny a 4.5 billion year old earth.

By the same token, you can find a few doctors out there who deny that HIV causes AIDS.

But, the vast majority of scientists, including those who are Christian, accept an old earth and common descent.

 

"I'd suggest most fundamentalists would freak if they knew you'd refered to this blue jean wearing, NKJV mama as a fundie. [Smile]"
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I suppose the definition of a fundamentalist involves a number of things but quite often those who accept a literal interpretation of Genesis are described as Fundamentalists. Maybe you are one and don't know it. Here is a quick find on an Internet dictionary:

Audio pronunciation of "fundamentalist" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.
1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

1. often Fundamentalism -An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement.
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Diane, I have read many of your posts in this forum and I would say this mostly fits your beliefs as posted here. Wouldn't you agree? Possibly there are factions who are even more "fundamentalist" than you but you definitely fit this mold it seems to me.

 

I said the fundamentalists (IFB) would freak.