which faith?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Helen, Mar 21, 2004.

  1. Helen

    Helen
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    Faith requires an object. You must have faith IN someone or something. Having faith that, somehow, things will work out is having faith in luck.

    Most people, even those who claim Christianity as their faith, actually have more faith in themselves than in God. The entire point of the Bible is that man is helpless to rescue himself and that God has to do it, if it is to be done. The Gospel, or Good News, is that He did do it, even from creation (Rev. 13:8).

    Now, if one has faith in God, and specifically in Jesus Christ, who is God, then one will abandon entirely the idea of being able to do anything to either rescue oneself or keeping oneself safe when one is rescued by Christ.

    However, most people seem to have a hard time really accepting and believing the idea that they don't have to do anything to earn God's grace. And so they tithe, become missionaries, marry in the Temple, wear magic underwear, attend required meetings and do required things if they are Mormon. They go to meetings, go door to door, and foreswear all manner of things if they are Seventh Day Adventists. They do the Mass, the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, etc., if they are Roman Catholic.

    And all of that is sham! It is all man having faith in himself, in doing the right things.

    When one is truly born again in Christ (and this is the work of the Holy Spirit, NOT of water baptism!), then one is indwelled by the Holy Spirit Himself. And it is only then that one can do anything to please God. And the reason is because the actions that please God are those done by the Holy Spirit Himself through the person. Again the person cannot do anything but submit and obey.

    The Holy Spirit knows better than to pray to Mary or any saint! Why should He? He's God! The connection to the Father and Son are complete through Him. He even prays for us when we don't know what to pray!

    It is only when the actions of a person are controlled and dominated by the Holy Spirit that those actions please God. This is why Paul warned about what we build with -- the wood, hay, and straw are substances grown from the earth. But the gold, silver, and costly stones which Paul uses as a picture in 1 Cor. 3 created by God Himself. What we do burns up. What God does through us stays.

    That is what it means to have faith in Jesus.

    Doing all the stuff we do to try to please Him somehow, some way, is attempting, at least, to have faith in ourselves.

    But it is only when He is doing the talking and acting through us that our words and actions will have any value in His eyes at all.
     
  2. Gina B

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    But Helen, isn't is still having faith in God to believe he cause Mary, or Joseph Smith, or Moses, to hear my prayers and pass them on to him?

    Not doing anything to earn God's grace is a given, but shouldn't we have to do something to continue being worthy of his grace? It's a one time sacrifice for our sins before salvation, but we have to work to keep ourselves clean and righteous and forgiven for the sins we commit after we are forgiven for what we did as unbelievers, don't we?
     
  3. Yelsew2

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    What faith did Abraham have that was counted unto him for Righteousness? FAITH IN GOD! Abraham did not know of Jesus, at least we are not given any evidence that he did.

    What faith did Noah have? FAITH in GOD!

    What faith did David have? FAITH IN GOD!

    What faith did Daniel and Joseph have? FAITH in GOD.

    The Faith of the Prophets was IN GOD, even though what God told them to say to the people included prophesy of a coming Son of God, they themselves did not know the Son of God as a distinct "separate" person of Deity.

    For Christians, There is but one object of FAITH, God the FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT, the 3-in-1, the Triune Godhead, the Trinity.
     
  4. Helen

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    Gina, a sheep who follows the Shepherd only gets his feet dirty. He or she walks in the right path and does the right things simply because he or she is following Christ.

    When one is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, how can one expect the Spirit to go through an intermediary to Himself? It really is silly when you think about it.

    When Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, He didn't tell them to keep their own feet clean. He bent down and washed them Himself. We can't keep ourselves clean, and any righteousness we have is because of Him, not because of anything we have ever done on our own. Forgiveness is already ours. It is when we repent of our sins that we open the door of our heart to its cleansing and healing effects. But we were already forgiven.

    I remember an incident when my oldest was learning to drive, and she bashed in the front fender on one of those concrete posts which protect gasoline islands from young drivers! She felt sick about it, but insurance covered it and I told her it was fine, please don't worry. Every new driver makes mistakes and I was glad hers was that simple.

    One week after we got the car back, she did the exact same thing (well, a little lesser dent this time...) to the other front bumper at the same gas station!

    She came home and was so upset and scared she was vomiting in the toilet.

    Now, if she had not cared, I would have been upset. But she cared, violently, actually! And my response again was "Julie, it's not that big a deal! Don't worry about it! I'm not mad at you!"

    She was already forgiven, but she had made herself sick over it. When we care that deeply about our own sins and feel that sick about them, the door is wide open for God's healing love and the forgiveness that was there for us all along.

    We are worthy in Christ, not in ourselves. We are righteous in Christ, not in ourselves. We are clean because of Christ, not because we have been able to keep ourselves clean.

    Julie's 25 and married now, and hasn't been in an accident since. She is an excellent driver.... [​IMG]
     
  5. BobRyan

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    If the Arminian view is selected - then we observe that Adam was born "Adam the son of God" (according to the Gospels) - perfect and in full family relationship to his creator -- and yet by not continuing in that relationship - he fell.

    In the same way all the "perseverance texts" of scripture point to our need to remain in Christ - and argue a kind of motivation for us to continue to make that choice.

    The case of praying to the dead is not a problem of works - it is a problem of casting aside the Word of God as a requirement for "proving" all doctrine.

    We pray for others knowing that God will hear and answer our prayers for them. This is not a problem of "works".

    Praying to the dead simply violated the Isaiah 8:19-20 rule not to communicate with the Dead. If we put our trust in the Word of God - we won't pray to the dead - no matter how highly we think of dead people.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    In John 8 Christ said "Abraham saw my day and was glad".

    In Gal 3:7-8 we are told "the gospel was for this reason preached before hand to Abraham".

    Peter tells us that the saints of old were informed "of the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to FOLLOW".

    There is no question that the OT saints had less information than we have in some areas - but I would not consign them entirely to the dark when it comes to the ONE Gospel Gal 1:6 that was "Preached to US JUST as it was to them" Heb 4:1-2.

    I choose - one faith - one gospel - one "good news" for fallen mankind. The Messiah is the Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Yelsew2

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    The Gospel of the Old Testament was FAITH IN GOD.
    The Gospel of the New Testament is FAITH IN GOD.

    The Messiah made everlasting life (salvations) possible for mankind on the basis of FAITH ALONE, because the Messiah took away the penalty for sin from all mankind.
     
  8. Ps104_33

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    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    Rom 3;22

    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16

    But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

    It is the Faith of Christ that saves not our faith.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    If we accept the Calvinist view of total depravity (a doctrine that I also accept) then in fact - the Gospel is the "only way" that the Hebrews 11 list of saints "could" have existed in the OT or in the NT.

    Only the New Birth "could" result in what we see in Heb 11.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Melanie

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    Sorry I do not get it, by Faith alone I am saved and I do not have to do or say anything else. I am sure this is not what is meant in some of the responses, but that is how it reads to this one.

    So if I truely believe, I can monster my neighbours, slaughter the unrighteous (in my eyes) and still be saved. Surely not.....

    Another thing what is water baptism?
     
  11. neal4christ

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    Of course he is, because both titles mean the same thing! [​IMG] (Messiah is Hebrew and Christ is Greek, both meaning "anointed one.")

    In Christ,
    Neal
     
  12. frozencell

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    This topic is bordering on "once saved, always saved". This can't be true. I can't give my life to Christ, then kill my neighbor, and then get to heaven without asking for forgiveness. God knows beforehand if we are going to be with Him or not after we die. It's simply a formality of us doing (or NOT doing) that which He is already aware of.

    But, Helen, you seem to be stating that doing Christian things is useless because we are saved by grace. I'm not sure God agrees with this statement. We are called to live like Him as much as possible, not just ask for Him to be our Saviour and then go our seperate ways.
     
  13. pinoybaptist

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    Three [​IMG] thumbs [​IMG] up [​IMG] , brother.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

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    Hello, Briony-G.

    No, if you truly believe, you cannot monster your neighbors because the Word says "live peaceably with one another.....be subject unto the higher powers (the laws of the land)....love thy neighbors as thyself;

    You cannot slaughter the unrighteous because your own righteousness is not yours but only imputed to you....every child of God has no inherent righteousness, only imputed righteousness....

    [​IMG]
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    But, it can happen. What does the Bible say about Elijah, one of the mightiest prophets ever to be used by God ? He was a man of like passions as we are.... (James 5:17);

    Samson lived his life in self-centeredness even up to the end of his life. See if you can find a prayer of repentance even when he prayed that he get back his strength. He said:

    And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

    This is a mine, me, my, kind of prayer,(and a lot of us pray this way), notwithstanding the fact that he is in that predicament because of his own doing.

    Helen is saying that a true child of God can sin, and not sleep comfortably at night, and this is true also of a true child of God who kills someone in the heat of passion, or even deliberately, like David did when he murdered Uriah. The child of God will have his sin "ever before him", he may not confess it (in which case he feels a cancer eating away at him, like David did), but he cannot escape his sin (Numbers 32:23) and its consequences here on earth .

    But as for the sin itself, if he is one of God's own, it has been covered at Calvary.
     
  16. Smaug067

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  17. cotton

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    Actually 'charis'(sp?) translated 'grace' is used in Luke several times referring to Y'shua. So it can't always mean "unmerited favor" but rather "favor".

    Cotton
     
  18. frozencell

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    The bottom line is that if you trylu love God then you will do your best to not sin at all. If you do you will ask for forgiveness. If you are truly in love with Christ you will do Christian works. If you aren't, then you won't. And that brings us to Scripture about professing with the lips, but nott the heart, and the whole walking away from the mirror and forgetting your face stuff. Works is a display of your love and passion for God and His commandments. Lack of works is pure laziness, which is one of the deadly sins. It's not even a matter of 'unmerited grace', yet, because that only applies to those who truly love Him. And so the circle starts over.
     
  19. cotton

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    Miss Helen
    Or one could say;

    Sheep follow the Shepherd because they know his voice.
    They follow in obedience.
    They follow out of love.
    They stay close to Him for protection.
    To be fed, or led to greener pastures.
    To be watered.

    Well, aren't you making the assumption that because people do things, they're automatically trying to earn salvation? I mean people can tithe or be missionaries because they love the Lord! I'm not saying that all the things you listed above that people do are anywhere near correct theologically, but it appears to be a particular Baptist notion that anything any believer does has an ulterior (sp?) motive to try to gain entrance into Heaven.

    I think this is a bit of an overstatement.

    Cotton.
     

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