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Featured Which is first? Resurrection or judgement?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Oct 2, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There is quite a difference betweeen "balanced with other Scriptures" and "pitting against other scriptures" and it is the latter you are inferring. The reason you cannot balance these clear unambiguous precepts with your view is because your view fails to properly discern that the human nature is multi-faceted and that God's provision of salvation is applicable to all facets. For example there is a past tense "eternal life" now in possession, of which all the above verses refer to. There is a present tense and future tense (which you allude to) but seem to want to pit against the past tense. The problem you are having is that your view of man cannot harmonize with God's provision for man's wholistic salvation.

    For example, the past tense salvation and eternal life has to do only with the "spirit" of man and past tense completed salvation of that aspect of human nature. The past tense doctrine is called the new birth and the object of new birth is NOT THE BODY of man but the spirit of man - Jn. 3:6 - which due to quickening has present tense eternal life in the spirit which will never cease even when the physical body ceases (Jn. 11:26).

    The future tense eternal life has to do with the future tense redemption of the physical body from the sin principle of corruption which only occurs at the resurrection - 1 Cor. 15:53-56.

    However, you are attempting to PIT the past tense with the future tense as though they are not "balanced" with one another, when in fact, they are perfectly balanced, but totally pitted against your view of human nature.

    The present tense "eternal life" has to do with the soul of man or the conscious self and how the conscious self redeems his time (Eph. 5:16) or loses his time. Time is redeemed or lost as one walks in the Spirit or after the flesh. This redemption has nothing to do with getting into heaven but in redeeming the present time for the glory of God and what one gets in heaven due to redemption of time (1 Cor. 3:12-15). This aspect of salvation of time, can be saved or lost, without loss of the soul.
     
    #21 The Biblicist, Oct 12, 2014
  2. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Believers have eternal life as well as the hope of eternal life when they finally inherit the incorruptible.

    They have eternal life now in that when they die, they are present with the Lord when absent from the body.

    2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    So "how" we shall be received in the Lord is how we run that race and that is on whethor or not we look to Him to be that vessel unto honour in His House or to be rejected to be received later on as vessels unto dishonour BUT STILL in His House.

    This is why those in the graves and those left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event when God judges His House first are present with the Lord as the Lord is present with them in Spirit, and when they die, their spirits are present with Him awaiting their resurrection in the order He has given it for being dishonourable.
     
    #22 Hark, Oct 12, 2014
  3. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist and Hark,

    I have read through all of your Posts, and there is too much to answer thoroughly. I would like to briefly respond to a few parts initially. Yes I have followed your suggestion and reexamined my definition of "death" and what it is, and considered the verses and concepts that you have presented.
    My understanding of “in the day” does not mean that he would actually perish on the day he sinned, but definitely as a result of his sin he would literally die. What happened was judgement was passed that Adam would now return to the dust. The expression “in the day” can mean simply “when” in the sense that if Adam sinned he would die. Romans 5:12 and 6:23 simply state that as a result of Adam’s sin death was introduced, and death is the “wages of sin”.

    Perhaps you have also been conversing with another heretic, as I have not used Ecclesiastes 9:5, but it is an interesting verse. I am not sure if you are suggesting this passage in anticipation. If I were to quote regarding man not being conscious in death I would possibly use the following:
    Daniel 12:2 (KJV): And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    Psalm 6:5 (KJV): For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    Psalm 146:3-4 (KJV): 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    I was interested in your explanation of where “paradise” was and is now located. My understanding of paradise is when the earth is restored like the Garden of Eden when Jesus rules from literal Jerusalem over the Kingdom of God on earth. If I may suggest that the following is one of the “difficult passages” that yields its true meaning when carefully considered.
    Luke 23:39-43 (KJV): 39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (rather: Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.)
    I have suggested a different translation of v23, and this is supported by Ethelbert Bullinger in his Companion Bible. This makes sense in the context, and is a proper answer to the thief’s question, to be remembered when Jesus would come in his kingdom, that is return from heaven to establish his kingdom Daniel 2:44, Isaiah 2:1-5. Jesus gives the thief assurance on the very day, the day that they were crucified, that he would be in this future kingdom, that is paradise. He gave him a vision of glory, a vision of peace and comfort in his dying moments.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #23 TrevorL, Oct 13, 2014
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I don't think so! The Ephesians were physically very much alive and yet at the very same time "dead in tresspasses and sins." The young widow was very much physically alive but yet "dead while she yet liveth" (1 Tim. 5:6). LIKEWISE ADAM DIED IN THE VERY DAY HE ATE but was very much physically alive as the Bible also says that sin came into the world by one man and "death by sin" (Rom. 5:12). Hence, the very same thing that resulted in being "dead" while physically alive in the Ephesians and young widow (sin) is attributed to Adam's sin. Hence, death cannot be restricted to physical death by any stretch of imagination. Neither can death be defined as cesssation of ALL lie or of being.

    Biblical death means "separation" - Isa. 59:1-2; Death is being "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) or "SEPARATED" from the life of God. Again, Eph. 4:18 speaks about those who are very much PHYSICALLY alive an yet at the very same instant "alienated" SEPARATED "from the life of God."

    Your definition of death is clearly unbiblical as it cannot harmonize with these clear and undeniable statements. The truth is that death is SEPARATION:

    1. Spirit death is SEPARATION between the human spirit and the Spirit of God and that is precisely why it is the "spirit" that is born again (Jn. 3:6) NOT THE BODY.

    2. Physical death is SEPARATION between the material and immaterial nature of man.

    3. Second death is SEPARATION of the reunited material and immaterial man fully resurrected into Gehenna - this is eternal separation from God in a designated place.

    In direct contrast "life" means "UNION".

    1. Spiritual life is UNION between the human spirit and the Spirit of God in new birth = eternal life NOW as God is life and to be brought into union is ETERNAL LIFE.

    2. Physical life is UNION between the material and immaterial man - Physical life NOW

    3. Resurrection is UNION between the departed spirit and immaterial man - eternal life in the future
     
    #24 The Biblicist, Oct 14, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 14, 2014
  5. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    I appreciate your response and definitions. I believe in literal death and life. I believe that death is death and to define death as SEPARATION is only a part truth and clouds the reality. Anyone who has experienced the death of a family member or friend knows the difference between literal life and death. Even the death of a family pet, or an animal or bird teaches us the reality of literal life and death. All are living souls or creatures and when they give out their last breath they die and return to dust.

    The Scriptures also speak of everlasting life, eternal life and these are to be a gift from God at the resurrection. The Scriptures also speak of a life that is brought about by a belief of the gospel, a spiritual life. This is figurative language, and the end result of a spiritual life will only be realised or consummated after the resurrection. In contrast, those who have not responded to the gospel could be considered as spiritually dead, even though they are literally alive.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #25 TrevorL, Oct 14, 2014
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    This is what I mean when I say it is pointless to have any Bible based discussion with you. You have no Biblical based response to the evidence I provided from the scriptures. I have shown from the Scriptures that death is not merely physical in nature, but your position cannot stand unless you restrict to physical in nature or what you arbritrarily call "literal" death, as though all other facets of death are not literal. You just respond by giving your opinion.

    I presented the facts of scripture and clear evidence to support those facts. The post still stands.
     
    #26 The Biblicist, Oct 15, 2014
  7. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    Yes, your Post still stands as representative of your understanding of this subject and your interpretation of Scripture. I appreciate that you view these things differently, but we have different foundations. My understanding of death is that it is cessation of being, the cessation of life and the return to dust, and claim that this is taught in the following Scriptures:
    Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
    Genesis 2:17 (KJV): But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
    Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
    These define what “a living soul” is, and the same words are used used for the animals in Genesis 1. These verses define that Adam, not just his body, was to return to the dust because he had sinned.

    The Apostle Paul uses Genesis 2:17 to contrast the soul or natural body with the future resurrected or spirit body:
    1 Corinthians 15:42-47 (KJV): 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural (S# 5591) body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (S# 5591) body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (S# 5590); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (S# 5591); and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    The Bible does not teach that man has an immortal soul. Neither do the above Scriptures teach that man has an immaterial spirit so that contains his thoughts and character, and thus the man or his immaterial spirit lives on consciously after his death.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #27 TrevorL, Oct 15, 2014
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Q

    Yes, your understanding is primarily based on the limited revelation found in the Old Testament while PITTING it against New Testament further revelation and that is why your doctrine is false. You use the Old Testament Scriptures to interpret the New, while I use the New to interpret the Old. Furthermore, you simply do not use all the available data but ignore what does not fit your scheme. For example, you use the data where it is applicable to both animals and man but ignore the data that distinguishes man from animals in regard to death and life just as JW's do. For example:

    Genesis 2:7 (KJV): And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    You interpret the above scripture strictly in keeping with animal life which was not made in the "image" of God. You ignore the plural in the Hebrew translated singular "breath" which is the same term translated "spirit." You ignore all the evidence from the New Testament that repudiates your interpretation of this text and death and life.

    So, you pick and choose what you want to believe and that is why it is pointless to discuss anything with you.


    You see no difference between man and animals in regard to their essential make up and that is your problem. Man was made in the "image" of God and Paul tells you bluntly that this "image" is INVISIBLE and that the new birth "renews" that image and the new birth is God's creative work upon the "spirit" of man - Jn. 3:6 and God IS spirit. Both the terms "soul" and "spirit" are used to characterize God who is WITHOUT A PHYSICAL BODY or blood and is not simply "wind." God consciously exists as a "spirit" and as a "soul" OUTSIDE or INSIDE a physically body and man is made in that "IMAGE" of God with that ability which animals do not have. Animals are not resurrected because animal life has nothing to resurrect. However, Christ's body lay in the tomb disjointed from his "spirit" and "soul" and the resurrection was the reunion of his spirit and soul with that body. Jesus clearly stated that the believer had a human element to his nature that would "never die" when the physical body does die - Jn. 11:26 "believest thou this"? No heretic will believe that.

    This has been repudiated several times but you have no ears to hear or eyes to see. The immediate context obliterates your interpretation. Your interpretation denies the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ as his body is the prototype (firstfruits) of this "spiritual body" and it was not a "spirit" in essence body, but "flesh and bones" the very flesh and bone body that was put in the grave. The "soul" centered body is described in contrast to the "spirit" centered body in verses 42-45 by the very same SINGULAR pronoun "IT" meaning "IT" is the very same body before and after but transformed from a corruptible to an incorruptive state, from a weak state to a state of power, from a "NATURAL" condition to a "SPIRITUAL" condition - meaning not subject to physical death and under the control of the "soul" but under the control of the "spirit."



    Jesus repudiates your heresy in John 11:26 as does Paul in 2 Cor. 5 and Philippians 1 as does John in Revelation as do other others in many other scriptures.

    However, it does no good to discuss anything with a person who is committed to only partial Biblical evidence.
     
    #28 The Biblicist, Oct 16, 2014
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  9. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings again The Biblicist,

    I am not sure if you have fully considered all of the NT teachings which are based upon some of these OT Scriptures. For example Paul picks up the concept of being made in the image of God in the language of Psalm 8 in the following:
    Hebrews 2:6-9 (KJV): 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    My impression from your interpretation and comments on Genesis 2:7 is that somehow Adam was made of a similar nature to God and the angels, having not only the breath of life, but as breath is plural, then Adam received an immaterial, immortal spirit or soul. Jesus also indicates that man is waiting until the resurrection before becoming equal to the angels and only then will man be not subject to death, that is mortal.
    Luke 20:34-36 (KJV): 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    I would be interested if you believe that at death the “spirit” of Jesus went to heaven (though Hark may suggest initially Paradise in Abraham’s bosom below the earth), and the “soul” of Jesus went to hell, as per the following Scripture, while his body lay in the tomb for three days. When did the spirit, soul and body of Jesus recombine?
    Acts 2:25-27, 31-32 (KJV): 25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    My immediate response to the above is that I agree. Resurrection is the resurrection of our bodies, the same bodies that died. I think that the JWs do not believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus.

    I do have two possible explanations of John 11:26, but not sure if either is correct. You may consider both of them marginal. I am satisfied with my understanding of 2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1, but not sure what passage you are suggesting in Revelation (In Post #3 you mentioned Revelation 20:4-7).

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
    #29 TrevorL, Oct 17, 2014
  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I don't see how this passage is being applied to our disagreement over the nature of man. If this is the extent of your New Testament evidence, then you are in a world of hurt, as the New testament evidence is overwhelmingly against your position.

    The terms "soul" and "spirit" are equally applied to God yet without a physical body or physical blood or physical breath. Thus, "soul" and and "spirit" have existence outside of a physical body, as well as inside a physical body as demonstrated by the incarnation of God the Son. Animals do not have that kind of soul or spirit. Hence, the soul and spirit of man is different in character than that of animal. More than mere biological life (thus plural "breath" spirits) exists within the nature of man. In addition to biological life necessary for man's horizontal existence is spiritual life necessary for vertical communion with God who is "spirit" and the quality of spirit that can exist inside or outside of a physical body. The quality of spirit that exists apart from a physical body is therefore not dependent upon the physical body for its continuing existence, just as God's spirit is not dependent upon the existence of a physical body for its existence. Since animals share all that you attribute to the biological nature of man, therefore, none of that can be the meaning of being made in the "image of God" as by necessity God's image is spiritual as He is spirit. Therefore, it is the ability to exist outside or inside of a physical body that is unique to man that is entirely absent from animals but clearly characteristic of "spirit" beings such as God. It is unique from angels because angels are not given biological bodies as part of their unique nature. However, God took upon a physical body as a permenant union with the divine nature in the person of Jesus Christ.

    This is such a clear and apparent falsehood that it is surprising that anyone could claim to be a Bible student and claim that with a straight face. Jesus and others plainly state by the use of the PRESENT TENSE indicative mood that believers POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE NOW??? (Jn. 3:36; 5:24). He plainly states that such life does not cease at physical death (Jn. 11:26).

    Your confusion is that you fail to make a distinction between what is right now born of the Spirit which is "spirit" (Jn. 3:6) and what is later glorified by removal of the principle of corruption which exists in the human body (1 Cor. 15:52-56).



    This is true in the absolute sense, since he is speaking of the resurrection of the body which is the final aspect of human nature where corruption is removed, and thus as an absolute WHOLE CONDITION of body, soul and spirit, death is completely destroyed. It is also true that present possession of eternal life in spirit does not keep death from fulfilling its corruption in the body. However, Jesus is speaking in context of the final aspect of salvation which has to do with the body which culminates salvation without denying the salvation of other aspects of human nature. Remember, the body is not the object of the new birth as what is born again is clearly and explicity said to be the "spirit" of man and by no stretch of the imagination can that refer to the physical "breath" coming out of a man's lungs. Your position is simply based upon partial evidence and clearly a biased viewpoint that refuses to examine all the evidence.


    First, remember Jesus is both God and man. As God He is omnipresent and still "in heaven" as Jesus told Nicodemus (Jn. 3:13) while speaking to him on earth. So, when he told the theif that this day he would be with him in paradise, he was already present in heaven as God omnipresent.
     
    #30 The Biblicist, Oct 18, 2014
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Neither 2Cor 5 - nor Heb 6 places the resurrection before the judgment in time.

    Heb 6 mentions the subject of the resurrection before the subject of judgment, and 2Cor 5 does not mention resurrection at all.

    Heb 9 gives us a sequence "it is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment" so for Paul and his contemporaries judgment was future.

    But in Rev 14:6-7 the judgment "the time for his Judgment has come" message is given to those still living on the earth, some of whom have the mark of the beast and some do not according to the text.


    1Cor 15 does not say this happens before the judgment.

    How can the saints be raised before they are approved in the Roman 2:13-16 Gospel judgment?

    in Phil 3 Paul sought to "attain to that resurrection".

     
    #31 BobRyan, Oct 20, 2014
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    #32 Yeshua1, Oct 20, 2014
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