Which Koran are we quoting?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by amity, Apr 28, 2007.

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  1. amity

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    In another thread, "A Perfect Example Why America Will Lose the War on Terror." which has now been closed, some passages which were said to be from the Koran were quoted by Dragoon 68. Now that thread is closed, but I am sure some of us still have a few questions to raise. For one thing, I have been trying to find those passages in the Koran online and have not been able to locate them. None of the passages as quoted really seem to be what the Koran actually says.

    So I am flamoozled. Is this an accident? Or was the book Terrorism, Jihad, and the Bible which was the source of the original quote simply fabricating Koranic verses simply to try to inflame people? I am not accusing Dragoon 68, because I realize he/she is almost certainly innocent of deliberate wrongdoing, but I cannot find any of those Koranic verses I have checked for so far using the citations provided.

    What happened?

    Here is the real Koran passage for passage:
    [2.92] And most certainly Musa came to you with clear arguments, then you took the calf (for a god) in his absence and you were unjust.
    [2.245] Who is it that will offer of Allah a goodly gift, so He will multiply it to him manifold, and Allah straitens and amplifies, and you shall be returned to Him.
    [2.276] Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.
    [3.27] Thou makest the night to pass into the day and Thou makest the day to pass into the night, and Thou bringest forth the living from the dead and Thou bringest forth the dead from the living, and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest without measure.
    [4.102] And when you are among them and keep up the prayer for them, let a party of them stand up with you, and let them take their arms; then when they have prostrated themselves let them go to your rear, and let another party who have not prayed come forward and pray with you, and let them take their precautions and their arms; (for) those who disbelieve desire that you may be careless of your arms and your luggage, so that they may then turn upon you with a sudden united attack, and there is no blame on you, if you are annoyed with rain or if you are sick, that you lay down your arms, and take your precautions; surely Allah has prepared a disgraceful chastisement for the unbelievers.
    [4.143] Wavering between that (and this), (belonging) neither to these nor to those; and whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall not find a way for him.
    [5.56] And whoever takes Allah and His apostle and those who believe for a guardian, then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant.
    [8.40] And if they turn back, then know that Allah is your Patron; most excellent is the Patron and most excellent the Helper.
    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
    [9.74] They swear by Allah that they did not speak, and certainly they did speak, the word of unbelief, and disbelieved after their Islam, and they had determined upon what they have not been able to effect, and they did not find fault except because Allah and His Apostle enriched them out of His grace; therefore if they repent, it will be good for them; and if they turn back, Allah will chastise them with a painful chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall not have in the land any guardian or a helper.
    [9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
    [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
    [22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;​

    Again, I think my point here is that some believe as they do because they are relying upon very questionable sources.
     
    #1 amity, Apr 28, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2007
  2. Dragoon68

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    The following is quoted from the on-line version you referenced: "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." (5:51)
     
  3. amity

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    Okay, so the quotes are all just off by a few suras and a few degrees of accuracy? So you do realize Mohammad is referring to the communities who had betrayed the Muslims to the idolators, right?

    Because I am having a hard time checking your inaccurate quotes I can't quite tell what is being referred to here, but in general in Islam the word that is translated into English as "infidel" refers to the idol worshipping Meccans, and Jews and Christians are referred to as "People of the Book" (i.e., the Bible). Jews and Christians are not termed "infidels" generally.
     
    #3 amity, Apr 28, 2007
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  4. carpro

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    O Boy!

    We have a new islamofascist apologist.
     
  5. amity

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    Oh, dry up. Honesty is always in order.
     
  6. Dragoon68

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    My quotes are accurate to the source given and John MacArthur is a reliable author for Christians in this matter. It seems one of the verse numbers might be published incorrectly in his book although I'm not certain of that.

    Aside from that, perhaps your on-line source is "off by a few suras and a few degrees of accuracy" or perhaps there are some differences in translations available as there are with various versions of the Holy Bible but I'm not certain of that either.

    Israelites are the "people of the book" and the "book" is the Pentateuch - not the whole Bible - and Muslims hate Jews and Christians alike having no love for either. For them, the Koran is superior to all the other documents incorporated into their false religion. The "bible" in their belief is merely an historical account.

    It is widely recognized that "infidel" in the Muslim world refers to all those who do not believe in Allah and most especially Jews and Christians. That is even what we - Americans in general - are called whether Christian or Jew or neither. The word shows up in the many real hate messages distributed by our enemies and incorporating the alleged authority of Allah as their basis of being just. Of this I am certain!

    Muslims apply the word "infidel", and the thought behind it, directly to us. The manifestation of those thoughts do vary from moderate to radical and from merely scornful to deadly violence. The more moderate are willing to "work with" us to some extent although keeping their own laws and customs superior and exclusive. Some of this is to buy time and space. The more radical simply want to destroy us by any means possible and using Allah's name, whether truly according to Mohammad's teachings or not, is in their battle cry. Few, if any, moderate Muslims speak out against this so, therefore, I must assume at least tacit support for the more radical thinking less perhaps the necessary courage for being so.

    This nation needs to do all it can to restore and keep Christianity as its solid foundation least we loose the temporal blessings of God Almighty.

    Patrick Henry said: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

    Tolerating non-Christian religions in our nation such that we might continue to have freedom of worship here is the proper attitude. Endorsing every religion known to mankind in the name of "religionists" - pluralism - or "multi-culturalism" is a certain path leading to more widespread and prominent practice of non-Christian faiths.

    We need to carefully ponder this!
     
  7. LadyEagle

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    The later suras trump the earlier peaceful ones. The first ones were written to attempt to persuade the Jews to join his new religion. They didn't buy it, so the later suras (the last ones) are the ones that call non-believers infidels and justify killing the non-believers. They trump the earlier peaceful ones. Mohammed beheaded over 800 Jews in one day, digging ditches for their heads to fall into.
     
  8. Dragoon68

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    No, the quotes originally provided were correct. Now, here are the same messages but quoted from your on-line source:

    [SIZE=+1][2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
    [2.244] And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
    [2.276] Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.
    [3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
    [4.101] And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
    [4.144] O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?
    [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
    [8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
    [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
    [9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
    [9.73] O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.
    [9.111] Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
    [9.123] O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
    [22.39] Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them;

    [/SIZE]

    My counterpoint must then be that "some believe as they do because" they are not correctly discerning the content of numerous sources.
     
  9. Terry_Herrington

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    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
     
  10. Dragoon68

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    Let's do be honest and continue our little study using Amity's on-line source for more morsels of true intent in the words of the Koran:

    [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
    [8.13] This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Apostle; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Apostle-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
    [8.14] This-- taste it, and (know) that for the unbelievers is the chastisement of fire.
    [8.15] O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
    [8.16] And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day-- unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company-- then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be.
    [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
    [8.18] This, and that Allah is the weakener of the struggle of the unbelievers.

    [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    Perhaps our government, so concerned with the "hate crimes" of a child in grade school, would rather we incorporate this philosophy of Islam as mandatory training for our children in our government schools? Now that all references to Christianity have been removed that should be much easier to accomplish.

    I thank God for the extensive blessings He has provided to this nation for so many years and especially for the wisdom imparted to the founders. I ask Him to bring as many as He has chosen among the followers of Islam around the world to belief in Him as the one and only true God. I ask that He continue to protect us against the evil influences of this false religion around the world and especially in our own land. I pray that He make us more willing to be used by Him as He desires to accomplish His great will giving us wisdom and courage as we lack both.
     
  11. LadyEagle

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    Here is some background from Mark A. Gabriel, who grew up as a Muslim in Egypt and earned a Ph.D. in Islamic history and culture from Al-Azhar University in Cairo. He is uniquely qualified to explain the teachings of the Quran, to analyze events related to Islam, and to articulate the motives of Islamic terrorists. Since 2002 he has authored Islam and Terrorism, Islam and the Jews, Jesus and Muhammad. In January 2006, he released his most recent book, titled Journey into the Mind of an Islamic Terrorist.

    An interesting read from someone raised as a muslim in a muslim country with a Ph.D. in islamic history earned in a muslim university in the same muslim country.

    Source
     
  12. amity

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    I think my point is that there is too much wrong here for him to be considered reliable.

    No, the point is the whole thing is off. The citations are wrong. If you want, try to find all the verses in the Koran yourself and then publish accurate citations, and I will check them.

    No, I think both Jews and Chritians are held to be "the People of the Book." And they do believe that the Bible is corrupt according to my understanding.

    And I am equally certain that the word "infidel," no matter how it may be used by some, is used in the Koran to refer to idolators. Christians and Jews do have a special status in Islam, different than unbelievers.

    None of the Muslims I know. Maybe you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.

    Christians in predominantly Muslims countries have historically been quite well tolerated throughout history. Way better than minorities in "Christian" countries.

    This is far off topic.
     
    #12 amity, Apr 28, 2007
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  13. amity

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    Lady Eagle, did your source happen to mention what jihad is?

    I sort of doubt it.
     
  14. Dragoon68

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    As it turns out there's nothing wrong with John MacArthur's references at all. There are, in fact, more than one version of the Koran - perhaps five in Arabic and, as could be expected, several in English translations - but they all read about the same. I already matched up the verses from MacArthur's reference to yours and the message is the same. Now, perhaps, you should check them?
     
  15. amity

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    I wish I had seen this before:
    Sounds very much like parts of the Old Testament. You know which parts, too. Note that this is specifically about idolators.
     
  16. Dragoon68

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    No, it really is right on topic! It's a reminder of where our founders stood on matters like this. We really need to understand our roots and then try to restore and keep them so that our nation can continue to be blessed. Embracing Islam as a "friendly" and "harmless" religion is a path towards destruction. Pretending it's a "peaceful" religion - especially when practiced by the hands of radicals - when the evidence shows otherwise is a big mistake.

    We don't need the government to charge children with "hate crimes" just because their rude actions - or perhaps even expressions of their Christian faith - are deemed offensive by Muslims. We're out of control with this kind of thing these days!
     
    #16 Dragoon68, Apr 28, 2007
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  17. amity

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    Throwing a ham steak on a dining table with Muslims students is an expression of Christian faith? You are right. We are out of control all right.
     
  18. LadyEagle

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    This is factually untrue. Muslim web sites will tell us all that and those who don't research history will buy into that lie while islamic apologists and elitists continue to assert that islam is a peaceful religion, but the historical facts tell the true story. Let us not forget the "infidel tax" that is paid to muslims for the privilege of living under their rule once indiginous people are conquered and allowed to be spared from the sword.

    Historical records bear out just how well indigenous people have been treated after muslims took over. Like how the Armenian Christians have been treated by muslims after muslims took over their non-islamic territory.

    http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photointro.html

    Or we could go back to the conquest of muslims over the Byzantine Empire.

    We could discuss the Assyrian Christians of Iraq after muslims took over.

    Or the Copts of Egypt after islam conquered North Africa.

    Or Afghanistan.

    Or Sudan.

    Or Sierra Leone.

    Or why the nation of Lebanon was originally created/chartered.

    To name a few.

    Or we can talk about Christian persecution in (now) muslim countries in 2007.

    Over 250 MILLION Christians will be persecuted in 2007 - primarily at the hand of islamists. (A few million in China and North Korea, but primarily the rest are in what are now nations that have been conquered by islamists.)
     
  19. Dragoon68

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    I've already said that the act - from what I know of it - was most probably a rude thing to do. I sure wouldn't call it an expression of Christian faith.

    However, I can think of many acts of like kind that would also be just as rude or worse and yet if they had not involved Muslims would not be considered in the same light.

    The problem here is that because it involved Muslims it's being considered a "hate crime" and that's completely wrong.

    This is not an issue for the government to deal with. That comes about because we've conceded to government run schools and further conceded that the federal government is in charge of our local schools whenever it desires to stick its nose in it.

    This misbehavior is an issue for the parents of the children involved to deal with.
     
  20. Dragoon68

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    This is completely untrue! Try going to preach Christianity in a Muslim run country. Then compare that to the freedom people of all religions enjoy in this country even when their religion advocates violence against non-believers.
     
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