Which one is the Lordship Advocate?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by IfbReformer, May 22, 2005.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    I previously posted these under another thread but this is what I was really looking for. It was suprising to me to see some Lordship advocates say they were both wrong.

    Now I will reveal that one of these two statements is from a famous early Protestant Lordship advocate(not MacArthur) and one is from a Catholic Theologian:

    Which one goes with what group, and why is one statement wrong and one right? Is there any difference?


    IFBReformer
     
  2. Liz Ward

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    The second is the Catholic. Correct?

    Liz
     
  3. whatever

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    I'd like to see more context. I'll say that the second one is the Catholic theologian.

    It depends on what the first guy means by "something more", and what the second guy means too, but they could be very similar or very different.
     
  4. Martin

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    I agree with "whatever". I need to see more of a context before I can answer.

    Martin.
     
  5. IfbReformer

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    I don't have the full context of either statements. I realize the importance of context many times to discussions. But the very fact that someone says "something more" than belief is required is a big alarm for me.

    Sometimes a statement can stand all by itself. In fact I find many times Lordship advocates and Catholics making statements very similar to these, and then spending pages trying soften up their statements - their statements stand.

    Do you believe something more than belief on Christ is required for salvation?

    What more than belief did God require of Abraham to credit righteousness to him?

    Is as one of the author's put it, our obedience and love combinded with our faith that gets us eternal life?

    IFBReformer
     
  6. Andy T.

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    It depends on how one defines "belief". If it is merely a belief in the raw facts of the Gospel message, then that is not saving faith. Mere assent to the facts of the Gospel is not saving faith. I know a lot of people who say they believe that Jesus died for sinners and rose again, but they have never appropriated those facts to themselves; in short, they have never trusted in Christ's sacrifice alone. And therefore, they are not saved. One must place their trust in Jesus Christ and his work on the cross alone for salvation. The mere facts are always present when one is converted, but one must personally place his faith or trust in those facts.

    The second one is definitely the Catholic one. The first one needs to be clarified as to how the author defines belief. If he is talking about mere assent to facts, then I see nothing wrong with the particular quote, although it is probably not phrased very carefully.
     
  7. James_Newman

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    They are both Catholic.
     
  8. IfbReformer

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    I agree that one must appropriate Christ to himself and not just sinners in general. One must take Christ as HIS personal Lord and Savior to be saved, it must be believed in HIS heart.

    But if you look at the first one's quote, he alludes to how one lives with belief. Both authors are similar in there connecting the life of obedience with faith, they just use different words, one says "combined" the other says "something more".

    IFBReformer
     
  9. Andy T.

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    In looking at this quote closer, there are some problems with it. I have a problem with the phrase "truly accepts". If someone "truly accepts" (and accept is read as having faith or trust) then he is truly saved. I think what the quote is trying to get at is there a difference between a saving faith and a professed faith. A saving faith is always a professed faith, but a professed faith is not always a saving faith.

    And of course, the term "belief" needs to be clarified. Mere intellectual assent is not Biblical belief.

    The statement is poorly constructed, and having the context would help. And having the greater context of the author's total writings would help, too (because I have a feeling that the author is some highly-respected man, like a Spurgeon or someone of his stature).

    So who is it?
     
  10. whatever

    whatever
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    Think somewhere between Red and White.
     
  11. whatever

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    "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:19-20)

    We can't know without the context but I'd guess that this is the point that the fellow was making.
     
  12. IfbReformer

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    "You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?" (James 2:19-20)

    We can't know without the context but I'd guess that this is the point that the fellow was making.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ok, I will reveal who they are, the first is
    Arthur Pink.

    A.W. Pink , as quoted by Iain H. Murray in The Life of Arthur W. Pink (Edinburgh: The Banner of Truth, 1982), pp. 248-249.

    Here is a little more of what Arthur Pink said:

    "…all faith does not save; yea, all faith in Christ does not save. Multitudes are deceived upon this vital matter. Thousands of those who sincerely believe that they have received Christ as their personal Savior and are resting on His finished work, are building upon a foundation of sand"
    A.W. Pink, Studies on Saving Faith, www.reformed.org/books/pink.

    And one last quote from Arthur Pink:

    “Readers, if there is a reserve in your obedience, you are on your way to hell.”
    A.W. Pink, Practical Christianity (Grand Rapids: Guardian, 1974), 16.


    The second quote is from a Catholic theologian.

    Demon faith does not involve believing in Christ as Savior, it is simply believing in the existance of God.

    IFBReformer
     
  13. whatever

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    It's more than that. The demons know without a doubt that God exists, and they tremble at the very thought, yet they refuse to obey Him. If we also refuse to obey Him then how is our faith any better than that of a demon?
     
  14. IfbReformer

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    It's more than that. The demons know without a doubt that God exists, and they tremble at the very thought, yet they refuse to obey Him. If we also refuse to obey Him then how is our faith any better than that of a demon? </font>[/QUOTE]Our faith is better than a demon inspite of our disobedience at many times because we obeyed the Gospel of Christ and believed on his name.

    There is no doubt we should and are commanded to obey God, but our salvation is not based on or connected to our perfect or even inperfect obedience, but on the perfect obedience of Christ that is inputed to us because we believed.

    IFBReformer
     
  15. whatever

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    I agree with that completely, but where does the passage from James fit in?
     
  16. OldRegular

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    All this can be cleared up by a few verses of Scripture:

    Ephesians 2:1-10
    1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


    2 Corinthians 5:17[NKJV] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

    Galatians 6:15[NKJV] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
    Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
     
  17. IfbReformer

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    I agree with that completely, but where does the passage from James fit in? </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry it took me so long to respond.

    James is talking of a dead faith, a faith with NO WORKS. If there is no fruit, there is no salvation. Having said that, some of my fellow brethen will take it a step further and say if the fruit it not a lot, and not just alot, but consistantly growing where a persons righteousness outweighs their sin then they prove they were never saved.

    Thats where I and many other Christians disagree.

    The other thing is this, while there must be change and we agree on that, our works and the fact of our righteousness outweighing our sin(or not in some cases) in our life cannot become the basis for our assurance of salvation - this is a critical disagreement I would have with Pink, MacArthur and even Spurgeon whom I admire.

    IFBReformer
    http://www.ifbreformation.org/Assurance_MacArthur.aspx
     
  18. IfbReformer

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    Just want to make clear for some who may be new believers or others listening in:

    When the scriptures refer to us being a "new creation" it is speaking of the our Spirit being made alive, this is the part of us that hears the things of God and can discern Spriritual things. The newness refers to our ability now to hear the things of God, discern the things of God and the ability to obey righteousness now.

    In fact in Romans it tells us what we were before were made a new creation:

    So when we before we were saved, we had no choice but to obey our sinful nature. When we saved, God freed us from our old master of sin and we became slaves to righteousness.

    However, can we still offer ourselves up to our old master of sin? Absolutely! Paul goes on to state this clearly to Christians he has just told are dead to sin and freed from sin:

    Keeping the commandments of God are a righteous act, one that is commanded and not optional for Christians. However, we must be careful of basing our assurance on our subjective obedience to Christ. One moment we may be obeying Christ, and in another moment we are disobeying Christ.

    Even the pattern of some Christians lives(sadly)is not the pattern of obedience it ought to be. But if we have believed, and we have seen the change in our lives, even if we have miserably failed God, our salvation is not based on our imperfect attempt to keep God's commands, but upon the perfect righteousness of Christ that was imputed to us the moment we believed in our heart on Christ.

    Paul goes out of his way to show that Abraham's righteousness was credit to him before he did a single righteous act, it was an alien righteousness that was inputed to him, not based on anything he did, except have faith, and that was granted by God.

    Was Abraham's faith proven before the eyes of men in acts he did after his belief - Yes - but this was not the grounds for, or assurance of his salvation.


    Unbelievers live after the flesh, the flesh is the only thing they know, the driving force in their lives.

    We who are believers, are the Spirit of God in us, and we are bent toward that Holy Spirit's call. That does not mean we do not have a daily battle with, losses to the flesh, because it still remains in us in these sin cursed bodies.

    Paul states this clearly:

    Paul spoke of the new desire he had to obey the things of God:

    Remember what Paul said about the unbeliever, they do not seek after God,they do not desire to follow God, they are free from the control of righteousness, but you as believer now have a choice - but the reality is many times we loose the battle with our flesh, this was frustration Paul shared with us. It does not mean we always loose, but it does admit the reality of loss.

    IFBReformer
     

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