Which Peter?

Webster says
doc·trine
Pronunciation: 'däk-tr&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
Date: 14th century
1 archaic : TEACHING, INSTRUCTION
2 a : something that is taught b : a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief : DOGMA

found

The Beginning of Roman Catholic Practices

Prayers for the dead are practiced ....300 AD
Making the sign of the cross ....300 AD
Use of wax candles in worship begins ....320 AD
Veneration of angels and saints begin ....375 AD
The use of images begins 375 AD
The Mass as a daily celebration practiced ....394 AD
Beginning of the exaltation of Mary, as the term "Mother of God" used ....431 AD
Priests begin to dress differently from laymen ....500 AD
Extreme Unction, or last rite of anointing, practiced ....526 AD
The doctrine of Purgatory established by Gregory I ....593 AD
The Latin language for prayer and worship is imposed by Gregory I ....600 AD
Prayers are directed to Mary, dead saints and angels ....c. 600 AD
Title of "Pope" is officially given to Boniface III by emperor Phocas ....607 AD
Kissing the Pope’s foot begins with Pope Constantine ....709 AD
Temporal power of the Popes is conferred by Pepin, king of the Franks ....750 AD
Worship of the cross, images and relics, authorized ....786 AD
Holy water used, mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest ....850 AD
Worship of St. Joseph begins ....890 AD
College of Cardinals established ....927 AD
Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII ....965 AD
Canonization of dead saints established by Pope John XV ....995 AD
Fasting on Fridays and during Lent begins ....998 AD
The Mass develops gradually as a sacrifice ....c. 1000 AD
Attendance at Mass made obligatory ....c. 1000 AD
Celibacy of the priesthood decreed by Pope Gregory VII ....1079 AD
The Rosary, or praying with beads, developed by Peter the Hermit ....1090 AD
The Inquisition instituted by the Council of Verona ....1184 AD
Sale of Indulgences begins ....1190 AD
Transubstantiation proclaimed by Pope Innocent III ....1215 AD
Confession of sins to a priest instead of to God begins (Lateran Council) ....1215 AD
Adoration of the wafer (Host) is decreed by Pope Honorius III ....1220 AD
Bible forbidden to laymen and placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia ....1229 AD
The Scapular, or devotional garment, invented by monk Simon Stock ....1251 AD
Cup is forbidden to the people at communion by Council of Constance ....1414 AD
Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma by the Council of Florence ....1439 AD
The doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed by the Council of Florence ....1439 AD
The "Ave Maria" prayer to Mary begins ....1508 AD
Jesuit order founded by Loyola ....1534 AD
Tradition declared as authoritative as the Bible by the Council of Trent ....1545 AD
Apocryphal books added to the Bible by the Council of Trent ....1546 AD
The creed of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official Church creed ....1560 AD
Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX ....1854 AD
The Syllabus of Error is proclaimed by Pope Pius IX and ratified by the Vatican Council; condemning freedom of religion, conscience, speech,press, and scientific discoveries which are disapproved by the Roman Church; and asserting the Pope’s temporal authority over all civil rulers ....1864 AD
The infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith and mortals proclaimed by the Vatican Council ....1870 AD
The Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XI ....930 AD
Assumption of the Virgin Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII ....1950 AD
Mary proclaimed the Mother of the Church by Pope Paul VI ....1965 AD</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the list...something that doesn't even apply. Defining doctrines is not the same as changing (altering) them. Once they are defined, they are not changed or reversed. That's the issue of hand, so try addressing it.

[edited to name link]

[ September 19, 2002, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Non-catholics are heretics Look down the page...protestants are in there...even though I am not a protestant, the CC considers me one.

I was born into the catholic church. I stopped going when I was something like 14 (no one in my family went). Jesus saved me when I was 17....I have been a Christian ever since.

Unfortunately the whole "different times called for different statements" DOES NOT WORK when talking about truth. When talking about doctrine, yes...but it also shows that doctrine changes...which it DID. If we are talking about truth, it wouldn't work.

Yes, basically you said I have forfeited my salvation because I actually GOT SAVED. Makes no sense, but I will let you have it for now.

No..I won't...I changed my mind. You are saying that because I left the CC when I was younger...I can no longer claim salvation...yet...I GOT SAVED (IE Turned my life over to JESUS) AFTER I left the CC. Hmm....

IE Doctrine changed.

 

Okay, let's stop here. We need to define "change."

When a Catholic says that doctrine doesn't change, we mean that previously defined doctrine is never altered or deleted. That does not mean that new doctrines cannot be introduced (or merely fully defined), further expounded upon, or made easier to understand (for clarity).

Thus, since that is what the Catholic Church means when she says she does not change doctrine, your approach is not valid. We never said we don't do the above things that I said are okay. Doctrine didn't "change" in its current form; the old doctrine is still there and in tact. That doesn't mean we cannot further expound upon it.

Understand? It's pretty clear.

 

Jason,

Doctrine does not change. Salvation is still only thru the RCC.....those who are separated, thru no fault of their own are not held to the same standard as those who know (ie Catholics).

The Church teaches about invincible ignorance, go study it and you will understand more.

The problem is that most non-Catholics have no clue about what the Church really teaches because they don't study it in depth enough. They take bits and pieces out of context and try to make it apply to what they want to believe.

LaRae

So...when the CC said that anyone outside of it was doomed and damned (early church), and then when it softened it's stance and said you could be outside as long as you longed to be inside...it didn't change? That is not changing doctrine?

Just from one link: CC Changes...has changed...and probably will change

quote:
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The Council of Florence, the 14th Ecumenical (and hence “infallible”) Council of the Roman Catholic Church, said the following:

It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church. (Denzinger 714).

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Yet...look at the cathecism

quote:
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The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

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and now JPII

quote:
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Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior.

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&lt;sarcasm&gt;No, no..you are right...the CC never changes doctrine. Never, not once..ever....&lt;/sarcasm&gt;

The point of fact is that the CC HAS changed doctrine many many times over the years. This can't be debated, it is documented (another problem with having 'Tradition' being equal with scripture...one tradition changes...tradition is useless). So, next time you accuse someone of bearing false witness, make sure you do so accurately, lest you look quite silly.

What comes now? Probably some defense that I have hear before..but lets see...

In Christ,
jason

 

So...when the above passage specifically mentions the Jews and how they aren't saved:

then you have JPII saying..

and then you say (because you think you understand what JPII says)

So..source 1 says explicity (even naming them) that the Jews are not saved. Source 2 (JPII) says they can be...and 3 (you) say they are if they seek the truth even if they are not in the CC.

This is a doctrinal change. 1 says, without a shadow of a doubt, that Jews are not saved. 2 says they can be...this is a change....

 

The thing is though, I did not find Christ in the Catholic church. Having a little bit of water sprinkled on my head when I was too young to remember did not have the slightest effect on my life. I was not a new creation in Christ and I did not know Christ. Now that I do know Christ, my life has been changed, I am born again, a new creation in Christ and you're trying to tell me that I forfeited my salvation by attainiing it?

16 "For God so (1) loved the world, that He (2) gave His (3) only begotten Son, that whoever (4) believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. - John 3:16 NASB

The Word of God says trust in Christ. The Roman Catholic Church say trust in us. I trust in God not man.

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

While I was in the Catholic church I was not a new creature, I was a sinful creature in need of Christ. Now that Christ has changed my life, I am a new creature in Christ, born again of the Spirit. Are you a new creature in Christ? Has Christ changed your life?

6 Jesus said to him, "I am (1) the way, and (2) the truth, and (3) the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. - John 14:6 NASB

The Catholic church claims to possess the truth, Jesus declared that He is the Truth and the only way to the Father for eternal life. The Catholic church seems quite eager to try to steal the position of Christ as Sole Saviour of the world, not exactly the type of actions that one would expect from the possessors of the truth.

Catholics think that it is significant that people leave other churches for the Catholic church because they are taking in by human reasoning but they completely ignore the greater exodus out of the Catholic church for salvation. On one side people leave because somebody convinces them that the other side is better and on the other side people leave because they find life in Christ which they did not have and which though promised they did not receive from the Catholic church.

8 For (1) by grace you have been saved (2) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (3) the gift of God; - Ephesians 2:8 NASB

Don't reject the free gift of God, but rather accept His gift of love, trusting in Him alone and not in sinful men.

 

Use of wax candles in worship begins ....320 AD

OOoooOOoooOOoo.. wax candles!! Oh no!

 

The use of candles, wax or otherwise, began long before Christ even came to this earth.

Ex 25:31 ¶ And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

I would assume that since God told them to make candlesticks, He intended that they burn candles. This is called LOGIC.

The rest of that list is a dumb crock also.

 

Where in the Bible does it allow for us to transpose the liturgical trappings used in the sacrificial system of Old Testament worship, into the New Testament church, especially seeing that the cerremonnial law has been done away with at the cross?

 

I like how you addressed the first issue, but lumping everything else together, and calling it a "dumb crock" seems kinda cheap. You usually explain yourself well, with a lot of tounge-in-cheek humor, which I enjoy. The thread, so far, has been argumentive, but respectful. So let's keep it like that. Maybe you could articulate some of the other points you disagree with, I'm very interested to see your counters.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way, Ed.

Your friendly co-mod.

[ September 19, 2002, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

Right...instead they find it in the Baptist Church.
Your point is moot, for if I converted to a Baptist today, it would be shouts of thankgiving from you all, and you would all be telling me how I've "found Christ" now.

Hypocrites.

 

MEE wrote: ""Brian, really one would have to leave that up to God. I would say, for an example, that God would have to take into consideration a lot of things. Like age, knowledge of the Bible, and accountability. Maybe other things, I don't know, I'm not God.""

MEE, you have basically given up your "Baptism a must" stance with one post from me. Above you have kind of created your own theology to account for my question which obviously pricked your heart. You must be fairly sensitive to have given in so easily, but I am glad you did because God requires only our heart not an outward act (Baptism). Dualhunter explained the gospel and how it applied to his life above very nicely and he did not have to put Baptism in the "salvation" part of things. I am betting he was Baptized after he was saved though. Thanks Dual!!!

Carson,Ed,GS,LaRae, It is funny to me how the doctrine vs. truth argument has progressed. Everyone is just talking around eachother. Term definitions, defences of positions(weak and strong), Clinton like word play. Yikes what are we really talking about. Earlier I said changing doctrine or doctrine application. I understand that you Catholic brothers are saying God established doctrine and it just is, and that you apply it as God gives it, and God gives it and has given it in His timing. In this sense doctrine is truth and so cannot change. Did I capture that argument pretty well?
So, with that terminology I agree with you.
Your turn to agree with me. The way the doctrine has been applied and carried out by the CC has changed over the years, correct?

Now, A statement was made and has been made by all four of you and Ron as well that the Catholic Church is the "real" church and the way God wanted the church to be. Three questions I have and believe me that these are sincere, I hope I have proven my genuine desire to really "seek" and that I am not seen as a "Catholic Basher" for my questions. Here goes nothing:

If the Catholic Church is the true church why do so few members understand the depth of the teachings? (The Catholics on this board do not represent the average Catholic. Proof being, I have never spoke to a Catholic who could explain the church teachings until I came to this board.)

If water Baptism saves and has the "power" of entrance into the NC why do so many Baptized Catholics never seek God when older and many leave the church or go to no church? (The number here, if we are honest, is in the hundreds of thousands, probably millions.)

Why are so many Catholics so carnal? (evidenced in WI by CC sponsered beer fests with live non Christian music and many sloshed folks as well as hard liquor as door prizes. To me not things for the "real church" to promote)

Please understand that these are my personal observations over the years and I intend no offense. The Catholics on the BB have been very knowledgeable and Christ-like and I enjoy the conversations very much

In Christ,
Brian

[ September 19, 2002, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Yes. Praise God for that.

Correct. The Church never claims not to grow and expand it's doctrines. The Church often refers to itself as an organic institution. The doctrines, practices, disciplines, rituals, etc etc etc will continue to grow and expand through time as we continue to better understand and know Christ in his relationship to us all.

I dare say that there are a lot of Baptists out there who really don't know what it means to be Baptist. I know that there were many in my home town (predominantly Southern Baptists). However, we can't blame this on the church; it's the responsibility of the individual. If it weren't up to us, we wouldn't have free will (do you believe in free will? I can't recall). It is up to us take hold of the grace of God and use it.

Would not most of you say that in some point in your life, your relationship with Christ has lapsed? Of course; it happens to the best of us. But we do wise up as we mature, and accept Christ's continual invitation.

However, I think your stance is slightly unfair. Yes, I know Catholics that aren't up to speed on their faith tradition. But I know just as many who do. Many Catholics tend to keep their faith to themselves, and might not be as open about it or able to explain it to others. They can still explain the love of Christ without being able to completely explain purgatory to someone who doesn't believe in it (that's hard enough for Catholic apologists as it is!). Catholicism is rich in faith and tradition, and it's a lifetime of learning.

Baptism is the entrance, yes, but it's not the end. This is the importance of Confirmation. I urge you to do some reading on this sacrament, its relationship to Baptism (it's sort of like the completion of what Baptism starts), and how the Holy Spirit comes upon you. I tend to liken Confirmation to the "being saved" in a Baptist faith; you are already a child of God, adopted through his love, and at Confirmation you are fully embracing the gift of faith and receive the power to spread the Gospel to others faithfully.

I suppose those who do not get confirmed (I know some non-Confirmed Catholics) or do not take it seriously) are missing out on these Spiritual gifts. This is why I so anxiously await my own Confirmation.

I can come back to that with "Why are so many Catholics utterly devout?" It depends on where you are looking. The kids in the Baptist and Methodist churches in my home town where the ones who would get drink on a more-than-weekly basis, then be saved...and then go back to that same lifestyle all over again. This is present in all churches, you see.

Are there Catholics who neglect their faith? Of course. But at the same time, I know some very holy people, many whom are planning on entering into a religious vocation. I know of people's prayer lives that I envy.

Again, you just have to look in the right places. From your description, I wouldn't expect to find devout Catholics at these places. Try looking at the Church instead.

Of course. Your attitude of peace brings a smile to my face. God bless your day!

 

Brian, sorry that you took me the wrong way. I didn't give up the belief that water baptism is "as a must" to be in the Bride.

I said the if a person had not been baptized, in the name of Jesus Christ, because of age (such as young children) knowledge of the Bible (never heard the Word) or being unaccountable (such as one that would be mentally handicapped) that God would have to take care of their situation.

I believe that He is a very 'just' God and would take care of such situations. Don't you think so?

Anyway, so that you don't misunderstand, I do believe that water baptism is very much a part of salvation.

BTW, you don't get saved 'BEFORE' one is baptized!
You have to be born "of water" and of the "Spirit" and with that, at least you are in the NT Church.

MEE

 

Right...instead they find it in the Baptist Church.
Your point is moot, for if I converted to a Baptist today, it would be shouts of thankgiving from you all, and you would all be telling me how I've "found Christ" now.

Hypocrites.</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not a Baptist. A person is saved by trusting Christ alone as savior, not by being a Baptist.

 

Interesting that you say "of water" and "of the Spirit" but then ignore the Spirit in favour of assuming that the water is refering to water baptism. Jesus appears to do opposite and focus on the Spirit rather than water.

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of (8) water and the Spirit he cannot enter into (9) the kingdom of God.
6 "(10) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 "(11) The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." - John 3:5-8 NASB

Notice that He says "that which is born of flesh is flesh" and the goes on to say "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Either Jesus has finished with His previous idea which involved water or it is also possible that the water refers to the water involved in physical birth and hence the analogy is continued when Jesus says "that which is born of flesh is flesh".

8 For (1) by grace you have been saved (2) through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (3) the gift of God;
9 (4) not as a result of works, so that (5) no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, (6) created in (7) Christ Jesus for (8) good works, which God (9) prepared beforehand so that we would (10) walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB

We are created in Christ for good works not by good works. Baptism follows conversion, it does not cause conversion.

 

Don't try to sneak out of your original intent. I said Baptist because most here are Baptist. Regardless of what church you attend, you are trying to draw me out of my own Church and go to another, where Christ is present, for you say he's not present at my church.

Avoid it all you like, but I see it with perfect clarity. You believe your church is better than mine.

 

Don't try to sneak out of your original intent. I said Baptist because most here are Baptist. Regardless of what church you attend, you are trying to draw me out of my own Church and go to another, where Christ is present, for you say he's not present at my church.

Avoid it all you like, but I see it with perfect clarity. You believe your church is better than mine.</font>[/QUOTE]Go ahead and stay in your church but put your trust in Christ alone and not in the Catholic church. It's not a matter of which church you attend, it's a matter of who you put your trust in.

 

Don't try to sneak out of your original intent. I said Baptist because most here are Baptist. Regardless of what church you attend, you are trying to draw me out of my own Church and go to another, where Christ is present, for you say he's not present at my church.

Avoid it all you like, but I see it with perfect clarity. You believe your church is better than mine.</font>[/QUOTE]Go ahead and stay in your church but put your trust in Christ alone and not in the Catholic church. It's not a matter of which church you attend, it's a matter of who you put your trust in.</font>[/QUOTE]Then I fail to see the problem. Of course my trust is in Christ. I also trust Christ's promise to protect my Church and to preach the truth. The Church's power extends from Christ, and so to trust my Church, I'm trust Christ. They go hand in hand. I don't know why you can't see that; it's a beautiful thing.