Which Peter?

GS, I understand what you are saying. It has taken me a while to really have a good feel for what you are saying but it is getting more clear.
That said though, I don't agree with several Catholic teachings and I do believe the church I attend (non-denominational) has doctrine and a senior pastor that preaches straight from the Bible with great clarity and is the place I can grow to be more Christ-like in. What I think Dual is saying is that we both think that though you are a saved believer in the Catholic church it is our contention you could learn more from a church like ours (assuming his church is like mine). I believe you are saying the same thing to us if I am not mistaken. We tend to always want people to come to the church we go to because it makes us feel that our choice is right, especially when someone does come and ends up staying. That is another one of those human nature things. GS, thanks for answering my questions before, I appreciate your honesty.

Dual, you and I are among the few who think thwater in water and spirit is birth water. Isn't it funny that on this issue many say Jesus didn't mean what he said but then on other issues they say Of course he meant what he said. We say to this day that a womens "water broke", that is the simple thing to call it.
MEE, so when Peter said repent he really didn't mean repent he meant something much different like a - a - a, like, iron your robe, yea, iron your robe, thats the ticket
I know, a bad way to make a point but it seems to me that the flesh mentioned in the next verse spells out the meaning in the previous verse. Why can't it be that simple?

In Love and deep Truth,
Brian

 

There is only one Saviour and that is Jesus. Is the only place in which salvation found in Jesus or the Catholic church? It cannot be both.

 

There is only one Saviour and that is Jesus. Is the only place in which salvation found in Jesus or the Catholic church? It cannot be both.</font>[/QUOTE]DualHunter,

You continue to separate the two instead of seeing one flowing from the other. According to what you keep saying, of course. I agree.

But what you're saying is not what I'm saying. Jesus made the Church the authoritative teaching body, adn thus the Church is of Him. By accepting Christ, I accept His Church.

 

But, are you also saying that if we reject his 'church' we reject him? I think that is what he is asking.

The other note would be to define what 'His Chruch' really is. But ...we have danced that dance many a time already.....

 

Thanks be to God!

And I believe that where you are now is where you need to be right now. I believe that everyone who is seeking sound doctrine and truth implicitly (subconsciously) seeks the Catholic Church. We share some common ground, and this ties us together. You are not completely separated, and I rejoice in the things that we share in Christ.

When it's your time, God will call you home. Maybe that won't be in the Catholic Church, maybe it will. Just answer His call, and don't be hung up on personal disagreement. Faith overshadows what we cannot comprehend ourselves.

I respectfully disagree, of course. I can't even imagine being anywhere else but here right now. I am so at peace with God, and so in love with my Savior that I don't even have the slightest doubt that I'm not in the right place. I didn't chose this Church; God took me here. Maybe some day I'll write down my faith journey (and what a journey it has been!) and share it with everyone. God planted a seed in me through my Baptism in the Lutheran Church, but it has been the Catholic Church that has opened my eyes to the every day abundance of graces that are constantly outpoured on me. God bless the Catholic Church.

Yes and no. Sure, it's reassurance, but at least for me, it's more than that. There hasn't been a day in the last several months that I haven't invited someone to Church with me. Occasionaly, I can get someone to tag along. Almost every day I engage in some form of religious discussion with friends or others I come across. I highly enjoy it, yes, but deep down, I feel that I'm not doing it for me. I'm doing it because it's what God wills me to do. It almost comes as second nature. I post here all the time, yes, for reassurance in my own beliefs, but also because I believe in accordance with my Church that this is the fullest sense of faith possible, and I want everyone to enjoy the fruits of grace and faith that flow from the Catholic Church.

 

But, are you also saying that if we reject his 'church' we reject him? I think that is what he is asking.

The other note would be to define what 'His Chruch' really is. But ...we have danced that dance many a time already.....</font>[/QUOTE]We've danced both of those dances before.

It's not something that can be explained and understood if you don't truly desire to understand it. If you come in opposed to it, then you're looking at it through bias eyes. That accomplishes nothing. Put yourself in Catholic shoes and evaluate the situation. You don't have to forfeit your own beliefs to simply spend some time taking the opposite perspective.

But, once again, you aren't rejecting the Catholic Church, because the majority of the time, what you speak about the Catholic Church isn't true. You rightly reject teachings that are false and contrary to God. The problem lies in that the Catholic Church rejects them also. So you're not rejecting the Church; you're rejecting what you THINK she is.

Rejecting the Church would be to come to a good understanding of true Catholicism and reject it out of selfish reasons. I.E., you know that abortion is wrong, and you know the Church's teaching on it, but you do it anyway (thus committing a mortal sin). To know the Truth and then reject it is to reject Christ and His Church. To not understand the Church and reject misunderstandings is not even the same thing.

 

Evidently Brian, you don't believe the meaning of the word water, in John 3:5, according to the Greek.

Someone should have told Peter, on the Day of Pentecost, that he was wrong when he told them to be baptized. Something to think about!

MEE

 

I understand the church's stance on birth control and I reject it because I realize the church's position comes from a faulty understanding of 1. human sexuality and 2. the story of onan.

Along similiar lines, I also reject the church's position (excuse the pun) on proper sexual positions. I am not even sure this one is still taught as it was hundreds of years ago (oh my, if it isn't, is that a change? Hmm..).

Where does that leave me (along with almost every other non-catholic in the world!)?

jason

 

Some people will just never "get it". They cannot comprehend the meaning of salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ, not of works.
They believe that faith in Jesus alone cannot save, so they help Him out.

You will hear water mentioned more times than the blood.

Susan

 

Hi DHK, Haven't seen you post for awhile. Thanks for pointing out that the water is water. I thought from the past that you believe that the water in John 3:5 actually is symbolic of something to do with God's word, maybe not though as my memory may be failing me. My memory fails me much more now that I am 40.

GS, Thanks for your honest posts. We may disagree on some things but I respect your attitude and your desire to have people draw closer to Christ. You were also right about a higher calling then just having people join our churches for self assurance. I, of course, like you feel that I am doing a non-believer the biggest favor in the world when I get them into my church and they can hear the gospel, see worship first hand, and have a chance to respond.

MEE, You know I have said about Catholics that sometimes it seems they stretch scripture to fit established doctrine. My putting a banana peal over a watermelon example. You have a tendency to do that alot yourself. You know what you believe and so you take God's word and try to fit it into those beliefs. Take the words of the Bible for what they are and learn from them and grow in Christ and discover how good it feels to not have to put banana peals over watermelons. I say this with love and concern as over the past couple months I have seen your doctrine fail the test of Bible accuracy.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

Well Brian, I had a long post responding to you and I got knocked offline. That was a real "bummer." I really worked hard on it too.

So, I decided you wouldn't believe what I have to say anyway so, think what you want.... but it's not the truth!

MEE

[ September 20, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: MEE ]

 

MEE, Are you sticking your tongue out at me? It's Ok, I forgive you Have a great weekend
I must confess I haven't prayed for you before but I will start now, at least periodically anyway as the Lord reminds me

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

Yeah, I feel the same way, Susan. When are you non-Catholics going to "get it?"

I have said repeatedly that the act of baptism is preceeded by faith. All of the Sacraments must be preceeded by faith in order that they accomplish what God intends them to. They are not "magic". They do not work outside of faith as if they are magic.

Example: Every year literally millions of Hindus make a pilgrimage to the filthy Ganges River in order to baptize themselves for the remission of their sins. They go in dry sinners, unforgiven, and they come out wet sinners, still unforgiven.

WHY?

Because their act is devoid of faith in Christ. They are doing something which they made up (or perhaps should say copied from Christianity) and yet wish to do this without the necessary faith in Christ and repentance which is required of adults.

Faith moves us to do what our Lord taught. Your faith in Him, however skewed and misplaced as it is, makes you do the things you believe He has taught. Your faith in Him, as you understand it, is what motivates you to do what you do, and it is Christ alone who will judge your motives and intentions on the Great Judgement Day. Likewise, our faith in Christ also moves us to obey Him as we understand His teachings.

And ultimately, it is grace by which we even have faith, for God was and is under no demand to be gracious to us and share with us the faith to believe.

I hope that someday you will stop trying to insist that obeying our Lord in His command to be baptized is the same as trying to keep the Jewish Law and thus "earn" salvation. It is not.

Brother Ed

 

Brian that is so sweet! When you pray for me, be sure that you tell Him that you want Him to have "HIS WAY" in my life, as He always has since November 1967. He is wonderful!

MEE

 

The Hindus seem to "get it" more than the Catholics do. They may put their faith in the wrong object (that is, not in Christ), but at least they are old enough to walk into the water and to walk out of the water. The are old enough to have faith, something you seem unable to comprehend as of yet. You will baptize an infant, and in the same sentence say that faith precedes baptism. How contradictory can one be. It is impossible for an infant to have saving faith. It is impossible for an infant to openly "confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with his heart that God has raised from Him from the dead." Please tell me of any infant you know that has accomplished this feat.
DHK

 

DHK,

John the Baptist lept in the womb. Who's the one who doesn't have faith? You, or John the Baptist?

I'm betting on you. If an infant cannot have faith, how did John leap in the womb with joy?

Jason,

About sexual positions: this was never a doctrine. It was a practice. Practices can change. Priesthood celibacy is a practice (or discipline). The Church could change that without changing doctrine. Will she? I most sincerely doubt it. Either way, that's not the issue at hand. Changing discipline and changing doctrine are clearly not the same thing.

[ September 20, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

Helen,
Thanks for the information on this subject. My husband has been reading the scriptures and we disscussed this issue a few months ago. The Bible doesn't say that Peter went to Roman. Actually he went to his own people. A friend of ours is Russian Orthodox and attends our church he says that the history at the Vatican records this. But when he was asked why the bible doesn't back this up he could not give us an answer. I really beleive that Catholics are deceived by the system of their religion. We need to pray for these poor peoples souls.

 

You haven't answered the question have you?
It is impossible for an infant to openly "confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus and believe with his heart that God has raised from Him from the dead." Please tell me of any infant you know that has accomplished this feat.

I somehow knew that you would pull that text out of context and use it. It is a typical Catholic response, even though the Scriptures says that John was chosen by God before he was born, while yet in the womb. Your example has nothing to do with faith and baptism.
DHK