Featured Which Seminary?

As I said before, the SBTC needs to make up its mind. If the BMA is so bad, hates Presbyterians and Methodists, and believes in theories similar to a flat earth, then SBC pastors should repudiate them strongly. Instead, they list Jacksonville College (also BMA) as an affiliated school.

Since the SBTC has stamped its approval on the BMA by working with them, then BMATS should be an acceptable place for pastors to receive their training. It should at least be as acceptable as SWBTS, which also has a Landmark heritage in J.M. Carroll.

If there is something being taught at BMATS that is "fantasy," then the SBTC should expose it and withdraw from it, just like they will from churches that embrace homosexuality. In my view, Southern Baptists have become remarkably inconsistent, so I guess I should expect nothing less from them.

In the meantime, BMATS is a fine and reputable school to receive an education from. Nothing has actually been said here that would change my mind on that. Its accreditation and costs place it among the top choices in Texas for a theological education. Because it is ATS accredited, a graduate could move on to any seminary for doctoral studies. Compare that with Liberty, for example, which would not be received by many ATS schools.

Half the cost and twice the accreditation, BMATS is a great place to go to school. Since the SBTC can't figure out if they like the BMA or not, I guess it may not be for those who want to rise to prominence within the Convention. However, a student from BMATS would not be held back from a career in academia.

 

Brother, that is ridiculous. SBC churches also partner with Presbyterians and Methodists. This does not mean we want ministers trained at a Presbyterian school, or that we think baptizing children is O.K. It is not an endorsement of any kind.

And NO...it is not "half the price." It is not half the price of the SBC seminaries (which range from 140 to 210 dollars per credit hour, depending upon the campus), and it CERTAINLY is not half the price of Liberty, which is 2200 or 1700 hundred per semester (depending upon delivery format). A 15 hour semester at Liberty costs about the same. And you are also wrong about their acceptance. There is not a single seminary that will not take graduates from Liberty, that I know of. Regional accreditation is the Gold standard of acceptance, and Liberty has that....and Liberty is a SBC college, and has a much wider acceptance in SBC circles..

Again, you asked; don't get upset at me for answering your question.

 

I am not wrong about Liberty.

Let me give you one example. Fuller's website states clearly:

Prerequisites for the PhD:

• Applicants must have an MDiv or equivalent, or an MA degree similar to Fuller’s MA in Theology with a Biblical Studies emphasis, from an institution accredited by the Association of Theological Schools, with an overall GPA of at least 3.5 on a 4.0 scale.
• Applicants must have achieved the level of competency required by Fuller’s MDiv program in both Hebrew and Greek before the start of the PhD program. If applicants have not yet reached this level, they must demonstrate competence within the first year of the PhD program.

Liberty's program would not qualify, as they are not ATS accredited.

One enrollment counselor advised a friend of mine to just start back at his Master's since Liberty was considered a practical college, and not academic.

There are numerous schools that I know of that do not consider religious studies from Liberty to be up to par with the rest of the theological world. ATS acceditation means something. It is like having the AACSB accreditation in the business world.

As far as the cost, taking numerous credits at Liberty might save a student some money. For the average seminary student taken 12 units at Liberty, the cost would be $2050, per the seminary tutiion cap. At BMATS, which is actually a fully accredited school that opens numerous possibilites, the cost would be $1680.

I am not upset with you for answering the question, just trying to clear up any confusion regarding BMATS.

With reference to Jacksonville College, are there Presbyterian and Methodist schools that are listed as Southern Baptist affiliated schools on the website of the SBC? I don't know of any.

Here is the list of Texas schools. Which of these are Presbytertian or Methodist?

• <LI class=CollegeName>Baptist University of the Americas <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>Baylor University <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>The College at Southwestern <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- undergraduate program operated by Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary <LI class=CollegeName>Criswell College <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention <LI class=CollegeName>Dallas Baptist University <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>East Texas Baptist University <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>Hardin-Simmons University <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>Houston Baptist University <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas and is fraternally related to the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention <LI class=CollegeName>Howard Payne University <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>Jacksonville College <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Southern Baptists of Texas Convention <LI class=CollegeName>University of Mary Hardin-Baylor <LI class=CollegeAffiliation style="LIST-STYLE-POSITION: outside">- affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas <LI class=CollegeName>Wayland Baptist University
• - affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas

Jacksonville College is a BMA school, and listed as an SBC school on the website.

 

This is my last post in this discussion. I realize that passions are flaring, and I did not mean to cause any frustration. Since Master's was mentioned, I was not aware that we were sticking to SBC schools.

I do believe that the SBC is inconsistent if its churches are more acceptable of Master's and DTS than BMATS. But, that was not the intent of the orginial post. I feel that I have hijacked an otherwise good thread, and I apologize.

 

Yes, you are wrong about Liberty.

Yes, they would. You need to look at the main admissions page.

http://stage.fuller.edu/Academic-Catalog/2011-12/Admission-Standards.aspx

The ATS requirement is a requirement of standards, not of exclusivity. In other words, a 20 Credit hour degree called a "Master of Divinity" would not qualify. This is actually something I have researched quite a bit.

Now, admission to Fuller's PhD is competitive in most years. So a degree from Liberty would not be at the top of an admissions list...but one from BMATS, who has sub-par classes on Church history, would certainly not be at the top, either.

Not sure why they would say that. That counselor has no idea what he or she is speaking of. Liberty is accredited by the same body that accredits Harvard. Regional Accreditation is the gold standard for academics.

Could you quote some sources? ATS accreditation means very little. It means MUCH less than regional accreditation. In fact, there are numerous schools who will not accept ANY national accreditor, including ATS. There is not a single school that will not recognize regional accreditation. The ONLY reason Liberty is not ATS accredited, is because the ATS has the antiquated and missionally limiting requirement of on-(main!)campus hours.

I have a degree from Liberty. I have been told by every single doctorate program that I have inquired about, that entrance would be no problem, assuming I am qualified in other areas.

On the other hand, there are numerous schools that would frown on transfer credits in the field of Church History, from a school that pushed Landmarkism, and denied basic historical facts.

Liberty is fully accredited. BMATS might be fully accredited, but the reputation would slam shut many, many doors.

No, what you are doing is spreading misinformation.

So what? BAYLOR, one of the most liberal, horrific institutions in Texas, is listed on that list. Affiliation is all about money, nothing else. HOWEVER: a COLLEGE is much different than a SEMINARY. Perhaps you should investigate the difference.

 

Why? What doctrinal differences does the SBC have with the Masters Seminary? With DTS?

 

Allow me just to point out that I have spread no misinformation. I have stated and backed up my claims with actual data.

I also have a graduate degree from Liberty and am fine with the school. I have no beef with Liberty Seminary.

The subject of ATS accreditation has come up many times here on the board. ATS is the gold standard of seminaries. Fuller advisors have told me in no uncertain terms that graduates from Liberty would not qualify for their PhD program (they would have to go back and do their Maaster's work again).

Here is a discussion on that very topic:

http://www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-45945.html

In that thread, it was mentioned that NOBTS would also not accept non-ATS schools.

Here is another thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-3252.html

I am sorry, but ATS accrediation is universally considered to be the gold standard among seminaries, not just RA.

In short, you are the one spreading the misinformation, not me.

With respect to DTS and Master's. DTS and Master's are heavily dispensational. The general position among SBC pastors I know of is that such echataological issues are given more latitude. Dever and Mohler are good examples when I state that.

A dispensationalist would be fine at SBTS, but a Covenant theologian would feel the hostility at Master's, DTS, or even Liberty. Such hostility towards this eschatalogical viewpoint is not generally the view of the SBC at large.

In short, given the choice between DTS and SBTS, I would go with SBTS without reservation.

 

No, regional acreditation is the gold standard. ATS is a nice, but quickly diminishing add-on. SBTS, one of the schools being discussed, REQUIRES regional accreditation for Phd programs. They do NOT require ATS:

http://www.sbts.edu/future-students.../doctoral-programs/research-doctoral-degrees/

"Master of Divinity or equivalent from a regionally accredited seminary. "

Funny, I was told the opposite!
I would LOVE to see a copy of that letter. Was this before of after they received level 6 accreditation in 2009? Did you have only an MA, or an M.Div.? Did you have the necessary language requirements in your degree?

Well, I KNOW that is wrong! I have studied at NOBTS! Not to mention, ALL of the big six seminaries accept Liberty degrees.

RA is universally recognized and accepted. ATS is not, and will, within the next 10 years, be a thing of the past.

No, I am not.

On that we agree.

 

I started studying the entrance requirements for PhD programs back in 2009. I never applied to Fuller, but was interested in what they were looking for in applicants. Since then, I have taken a different course of research and have been working on the integration of faith and knowledge in an attempt to continue on the schloarly research of Lyon and Beaty.

In essence, I have not specifically cared about the entrance requirements at the seminary level since 2009, so perhaps the last three years has shown a shift of which I am unaware. Currently, I am working on a PhD thesis project that will evaluate the relationship of leadership styles to theological development among member schools of the CCCU. My focus has not been specifically theological, but focused on business and leadership aspect of the college and how it intersects with faith. Since I am highly interested in the secularization of Christian colleges and universities, I try to stay up to date on knowing what schools believe what and how that intersects with their denominational structure.

If I ever do go back to complete any further grad work, I will have to select between full theological work or straight business. It will be a showdown between an AACSB accredited business school and a solid seminary. We'll have to see where God leads.

I am an Indepdent Baptist, so I have no particular horse in the race. My all time favorite school is Maranatha Baptist Bible College (from what I know about them). That should tell you where I am theologically.

Forgive my rambling, but that should explain what reference point I come from.

 

Doubting myself, I called my friend in admissions at Fuller. As I originally stated, Fuller will NOT accept an MDiv from Liberty for their PhD program. Their website did not make a liar out of me. A Liberty student would have to transfer credits in and finish his Masters degree before moving on the the PhD.

Fuller is not the only school with that requirement. In any case, Masters, DTS, and SBTS are all ATS accredited, so it is no biggie. All of these schools would be acceptable choices to move into a PhD program at Fuller.

 

What do you mean "Transfer in credits and finish out their masters." Why on earth would they accept credit transfers, if they don't recognize the accreditation? That does not even make sense.

Like I said, SBTS won't take ATS only schools....

 

I have no contacts in the big six schools of the SBC, so I do not know what their requirements for the PhD are. In any case, all of the schools on the table are ATS accredited, so it really doesn't matter.

The biggest question is which school (between DTS, Master's and SBTS) would offer a solid biblical education. I honestly feel that SBTS would be an excellent choice between the three. I might suggest that Gordon Conwell be looked at as well. Gordon Conwell has an excellent academic reputation. Several distringuished scholars in biblical fields are from this seminary. I am including Haddon Robinson in expositiory preaching and Bill Mounce in Greek.

GCTS is not Baptist, so if you are wanting to stick with a Baptist school to appease the Convention, this is not a school that you would want. However, it has an excellent reputation, great scholarship, and they have a satellite campus in Charlotte, NC and Jacksonville, Fl, so you don't have to live near yankees (that was a joke, of course).

GCTS is also not painfully dispensational. It tolerates a number of viewpoints within the eschatological framework.

 

To Chad: You keep mentioning that Jacksonville College is mentioned, however notice BMATS isn't, perhaps there's a reason for that? I don't know but using the fact that Jacksonville College is mentioned doesn't automatically mean that BMATS is. I just think that just because they accept a Associates degree from a BMMA junior college doesn't mean they'll readily accept a MDiv or Doctorate from a BMAA seminary. Also in the wording it says that the school affiliated itself with the SBTC not the other way around. Again I don't say any of this to discredit BMATS as a school at all. I am sure it is a fine school, and it all depends on what the end goal of the student is. I do have to agree however that if the end goal is to be in the SBC that BMATS might not be the best choice, but I think you yourself even said that.

To Whomever: ATS vs Regional, I have to say in most cases I've seen that Regional is usually what schools want. That being said there are some exceptions, however I would say for everyone 1 school you find that wants ATS you'll probably find many more that require Regional. Again I think they key is just know what your goals are, if your heart is set on getting a PhD from Fuller for example, then make sure you have an ATS Masters and vice-versa.

To RM: Dispensationalism (like Landmarkism) has a heavy effect on how things are taught as it effects how one looks at the Bible and Church History. Now for the choice of going to a school that aligns with your theology or challenges it is a bit of a personal choice.

 

I understand that BMATS isn't mentioned. There is a reason for this. BMATS is run by the BMAA, not the BMAT. When the SBTC and BMAT started working together, all of the ministries of the BMAT also became affiliated with the SBTC. This included Jacksonville College, but not BMATS.

My point is more nuanced than I was getting across. What I was trying to understand is why the SBTC is fine with accepting the BMA churches and ministries when it repudiates the BMATS. It seems inconsistent to me. GCTS, DTS, and Masters are fine schools, but they have no connection with Baptists at all. On the other hand, BMATS is Baptist and its supporting churches are connected to the SBTC.

If BMATS is so bad because of its Landmarkism, then so is each church that is in the BMAT, and so is Jacksonville College.

I know that the BGCT- SBTC split has created a strange world in Texas Baptist Land. Perhaps the SBTC is so in need of undergraduate colleges that they did what was necessary to find one in spite of its Landmarkism. But, at the end of the day, something strange is going on.

I wonder if Ergun Caner will swing Arlington Baptist College into the SBTC as well, then they could have three schools... just a thought.... lol.

 

The entirety of the SBC does not stand opposed to Landmarkism. I daresay there are( A VERY FEW!) landmark type churches in the SBC (though these are usually non affiliated fundamentalist churches). I hope to heaven Ergun Caner keeps ABC the heck out of the SBC!

 

To the topic at hand... comparing Master's, SBTS, and Gordon Conwell at the grad (not PhD) level and not considering the Southern Baptist affiliation as a necessity.

Does GCTS win this round?

Bill Mounce, Haddon Robinson, et al.

I bet you Dever could asnwer that question authoritatively. But does he have too much of a connection to SBTS to be objective?

 

For SBTS: What about Bruce Ware, Don Whitley, Russell Moore, and Al Mohler? Thomas Schreiner, and Tom Nettles?

SBTS is one of the most rigorous, high quality Seminaries in the Country. Second to none, in my opinion, especially in terms of faculty.

 

I agree with this statement 100%. However, I would have to say it depends on one's theological leanings to which school is preferred.