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Which sin will keep you out of heaven?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by SaggyWoman, Oct 17, 2008.

  1. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I think you are confusing Allan's position. He doesn't hold to "true monergism", only stating what it is.
     
  2. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Exactly Web.
    Thanks :thumbs: Couldn't have said it better myself.
     
  3. Dale-c

    Dale-c Active Member

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  4. mattjtayl

    mattjtayl New Member

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    For the Christian who truly is repentant of his sins, fears the Lord his God, believes Jesus died on the cross and arose to heaven for his sins, and Love's his Lord with all his heart and soul then no sin should be able to keep him out of heaven.

    That means even murderers, child molesters, rapists, and gangsters can make it into heaven. God showed himself to be very forgiving.

    However the greatest sin I think of all that I believe will keep someone out of heaven is denying that God exists and that Jesus was our savior.

    I am not the one to say who will or will not go to heaven. However according to the scriptures though someone who doesn't believe in God and that Jesus was the Christ will not make it into the kingdom of God.
     
  5. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Again, your view is ONLY clear if you jump around all over the text like you are.
    I'm not trying to sound condesending so please don't take anything I say in that regard.

    However, I will show you passage by passage that what I am saying is exegetically correct.
    Seed is the key word and it refers to 'a people from a person'.
    As in - "in Isaac shall thy (Abrahams) seed (people) be called". And we know that Isaac's son Jacob (of whom God changed his name to Israel) is the father of the seed (people) of Abraham and Isaac, of whom it is also called "and of Jacob".
    See in Gen that there are two Nations that God sees in Abrahams two sons (Ishmael, and Isaac)

    And low and behold we see the SAME thing with Rebekah. God speaks concerning two NATIONS.
    You may being dieing to ask: And where does scripture say that Allan? Hmmmm...
    Do you see these two babies in the eyes of God reprenting two Nations, two manner of people. Paul is utilizing this to show his point concerning God's soveriegnty according to his purpose NOT Salvation. Look at the scriptures again:
    Did you happen to see the Direct Quote Paul pulls from. It concerns TWO NATIONS and only Nations NOT the individuals. Thoug both Nations deserve to be justly punished God is merciful to one according that the purpose of election will stand.

    If it does refer to them as individuals, then Please show me scripture WHERE it states that Esau was EVER a servant of Jacob. THis is KEY to what Paul is speaking of here since he uses the prophesy to illistrate his point - Election to and of Purpose. This is why it references BEFORE either had done Good or Evil... it isn't about who is the best, more religious, or more desirous and so the scripture speaks truly when it states:
    So now that we see this verse we can note that is refers to God deciding who he will use for what purpose because of His own decision and not on the account or ability of any man. This verse is not and does not speak to salvation, but in fact it speaks to the issue that God can use whomever He wishes to fulfill His purpose.

    Therefore, the passage of "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated" is not a reference speaking of them indiviually to and of salvation, but to the poeples God had chosen or elected to fulfill His purpose regarding the bringing forth of a People unto Himself, to give them He testimonies and Law, and through whom the Saviour would come, and to the people whom God passed over which had all natural and earthly rights to have that honor (Esau being the first born). God chooses whom He will use and who He will not.

    Is God unrighteous for purposing Jacob to be the people of God and the lineage of Christ, and Esau was not. No, because both were the same before the Lord and God chose Jacob as the purveyor of His purpose. Again Not speaking of salvation but the Purposes of God and through whom He would use. God spoke to Moses concerning this same thing regarding use for a purpose - NOT salvation. Moses was the representive of Gods people just as pharaoh is/was. And though God spoke to both it was regarding the whole of their people.

    Pharaoh here is spoken to, so maybe this is where it God deals with individuals. Nope again. Though God did speak this to Pharaoh look back at what was fully said:
    Pharaoh is the head the very voice of his people, Egypt. The plague that God sent was against pharaoh AND his people. He represented all of Egypt. So we see that though God spoke to Pharaoh of judgment God's judgment was actually upon all of Egypt through him as the head of a people. Though it was to the one it was dispursed upon them all. God raised up or allowed to be Pharaoh but there would be no Pharaoh without the people which make up Egypt whom He also raised up or allowed to be. Notice it says "for to show in THEE my power..." Now it is interesting that God showed His power in Egypt who was ruled by Pharaoh. God did nothing IN Pharaoh which showed forth His power to the Nations but He did show forth His power in Egypt and the surrounding nations trembled at what God did IN Egypt! They were raised up or allowed to be born (even knowing their rebeliousness) for Gods purpose to show forth the Glory of the Lord to the World. And Gods purpose was fulfilled! It is about purpose not salvation. The very next verse shows this same thing when read in context.
    Can you not see this is speaking of God working among men to the fulfilling of His purpose. You must bring to the text the presupposition it is speaking of salvation here. It have have implications towards that effect but the scriptures do not speak (here at least) of salvation but election for the purpose of God (Making a people and preparing the way for His Christ).


    It is about election to purpose NOT salvation.
     
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Second part:

    NOTICE however, that you skip from verses 6 and 7 to 25 and 26 and then to verse 30 in order to illistrate something. But if you keep those passages in context what do you get - That there will be people who were not Jews (Rahab the and various/numerous others) that will also be called God's children. Look at those passages again in the context of prophesy give by the actaul prophet. They each refer to Israel the Nation. Where God judges them and withdraws from them and also where He brings them back. Verse 26 from Hsa 2:23 , a passage relating immediately not to the heathen but to the kingdom of the ten tribes. However since they had sunk to the level of the heathen, who we understand were "not God's people," and in that sense "not beloved,". The apostle legitimately and accurately applies it to the heathen, as "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise" .

    Just go back and read the prophesies given. That is why Paul references it and others - for the context. There is no other exegetical way to come to any conclusion of Romans 9 that it being about God's election to purpose not eternal salvation
     
  7. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I'm sorry Allan but I still disagree. It is clear that God is speaking of Israel in this passage - but who is Israel? He tells us right in the passage:

    Romans 9:25-26 "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

    "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
    and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.
    '"
    26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
    there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
    '""

    God's people are Israel. Gentiles are grafted into the vine and now those who were not His people are His people. This passage is not speaking of national Israel but spiritual Israel as well. All believers are part of spiritual Israel.
     
  8. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    To some of us, Israel in the New Testament is the church; the Israel of God. The nation of Israel is just another nation in this world and shares no real importance in scripture.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  9. PastorGreg

    PastorGreg Member
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    Back to the OP - as Dr. Bob said, there is no sin that can keep me out of heaven. God has saved me, there is no condemnation, I am sealed with His spirit, he has chosen me, adopted me, made me accepted in the beloved...
    I think the original question is the generic "you" as in all people. THe answer is the same - no sin causes one to miss heaven. Everyone is born already not going to heaven. It comes naturally. We are all born sinners and have to do nothing to go to hell. Someone must intervene to provide a way for us to go to heaven. And HE did!
     
  10. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    Good post.
    People frequesntly don't seem to understand, everyone is going to hell, until Jesus died for us, and God chose us, no one is predestined to hell, all are going, some were chosen not to go. therefore God doesn't send anyone to hell.
     
  11. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    OK, so this is what you're saying it is in reply

    This statement appears as something you believe. It is this I made my reply:"By that ideal you mean when I asked the Lord to save me he already had? Sounds like a "mean trick " the Lord is playing on people toying with their lives!

    If your view was true, and it's not, then Jesus never would have asked His disciples, "Will you also go away?" to which Peter replied, " Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life? " John 6:68

    Salvation in essence is totally the work of God, but man has to respond in faith believing, otherwise much of Scripture would be useless."

    Now either you weren't clear that is what you're saying true monergism is, and didn't place the proper punctuation to make this distinct, or it is what you think.

    I wasn't replying to what you say monergism is, but what you said after that statement.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    The one(s) you have not been forgiven of.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    No real importance in Scripture?!? Wow. I guess the purpose of the great tribulation is moot then...
     
  14. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I agree whole heartedly as do all Calvinists and Reformed.

    However that is not Monergism, that is synergism.

    Monergism is "the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration."

    This unfortunately isn't true biblically. All the aspects of regeneration (those things which makes one regenerate or made new/born-again) are not imparted to us except by the excersizing of one's faith. Those apects being justification, sanctification, righteousness, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the propitation of Christ being applied, and being IN Christ. Scripture states in no uncertain terms that all of the above happen 'by faith'. Thus if scripture is correct no man is regenerate until after a person has excersized faith.

    Much the same as physical life- there are aspects of which must be in order to establish the claim that one is alive. One is not alive and THEN does these things one is alive because one IS doing these things. Same with regeneration. One is only regenerate if these aspects (the propitiation applied, justification, sanctification, made righteous, indwelt by the Holy) have already been applied and scripture states none are applied apart from the excersizing of ones faith first. You can go to my thread "Ordor Salutis 2 - The Regeneration". Point of fact if all the above have transpired then one IS saved - thus regeneration or being born-again IS salvation. To say that is done prior to faith (as the Calvinists and Reformed veiws do) is to say that man is saved apart from faith.


    Monergism is God regenerating man without mans input/faith at all. Thus God saves man without mans input of faith as well. They either are one and the same or they are not. Thus the question must be asked what is regeneration and what makes one saved.

    Salvation: is that Christ death for that man is applied to Him against the penalty of His sin - thus that man is now justified, righteous, sanctified (set apart), indwelt by the Holy Spirit and In Christ Jesus. This is what makes a man saved (made new - all old thing are done away with).

    What is regeneration: it is the application of Christs propitiation, justification, sanctification, righteousness, indwelling ofthe Holy SPirit, and being IN Christ (thus alive - regenerate/made new/born again - old things are passed away all things have become made new.)
     
  15. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    You will not find 'spiritual Israel' anywhere in the text. We, according to scripture, are the 'seeds of Abraham' not of Spiritual Israel. though we do share in many of the promises 'of Israel'. Abraham was before Israel was created two generations later in Jacob. Israel was bound to the Law (Moses) but Abraham was before the Law and was of Faith. Anyway, read it as want .. :wavey: :)
     
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