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Which view of hell do you hold to?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Is it better to have had a winning lottery ticket and lose it, or to have never had it?

    My problem is not whether verses like this prove or disprove Hell and it length of duration, but whether or not the soul is immortal in and of itself. John says only God is immortal. Scripture indicates we recieve immortality through Christ. How and when does the lost man recieve immortality so that he can "burn forever"?

    What did the Tree of Life provide, immortality of the physical or immortality of the soul?
    If it gives immortality of the physical then Adam was not created physically to live forever. He could only attain it by eating of the Tree of Life.Therefore his physical death was not a result of the fall. If his physical death did not result from the fall, then what is "Adam's Death" referring to in I Cor 15? Spiritual?

    If the Tree of Life provided immortality of the soul, and man does not have acess to it because in God's grace He took man out of the Garden so he would not eat of it. Then how does the lost man gain immortality of the soul?
     
  2. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    A figurative view does not mean "no torment". For me it means something far worse than an eternal fire. The Bible describes flames of torment and outer darkness, which seem incompatible together. That's why I think they are figurative of some unimaginable torment.
     
  3. exscentric

    exscentric Well-Known Member
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    You asked: "How is this a problem for regeneration first theology?"

    Just commenting on: "If no one longs for God in this life without the Holy Spirit quickening him, I don't see them longing for God in the next."
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Either #1 or #2. Not sure which.

    I heard a fire chief being interviewed once. He said that most people don't realize that in the middle of a fire it's very dark, not bright. I thought that was interesting in light of Jesus' statements about "being cast into outer darkness."

    Interesting that we have some annihilationists or potential annihilationists here who are Baptists.
     
  5. jdcanady

    jdcanady Member

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    Grasshopper

    I thought mankind was made perfect (complete) with both a physical body and a spirit. Just as it wasn't just the physical part of Adam that fell, but the spirit as well, it isn't just the soul that burns in hell, the physical body is reunited with the soul and the whole man suffers.

    Only God is immortal because only God is self-existent. God "holds the cosmos" together. Without God actively keeping us in existence, we wouldn't exist.

    Scripture is pretty clear that the suffering is eternal.
     
  6. jdcanady

    jdcanady Member

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    Sorry exscentric, my mind must be in a fog this evening. I'm still... :confused: :confused:
     
  7. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    JD,

    You have a good point about Lazarus. He doesn't call out to God. However, if he doesn't have a "change of heart," why does he beg for someone to go and warn his brothers that the word of God is true?
     
  8. jdcanady

    jdcanady Member

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    The rich man was really, really, really, really, hot. He didn't want his family to suffer like he was suffering. That proves he loved his family, not that he loved God, or had a "change of heart".
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    What about a soul?
    What then was the Tree of Life for?

    What is the scriptual proof that the physical fell at the fall?

    If only God is immortal then how does man gain immortality?

    Then we are not immortal.

    Scripture is clear that the result of the punishment is eternal.
     
  10. jdcanady

    jdcanady Member

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    I hold to physcial and spirit/soul existence. I do not separate soul/spirit. They are different words for the same thing.

    You said:

    "What is the scriptual proof that the physical fell at the fall?"

    Romans chapters 1-8

    We continue to exist as long as God wants us to exist. If He wants the damned to suffer forever, which is what scripture clearly states, then they will suffer forever.

    You seem to look at immortality as a continued existence from a certain point in time forward. I see immortality as always existing; from eternity to eternity. It that sense, only God is immortal, because only God has always existed.

    I don't see scripture supporting annihilationism.
     
  11. jdcanady

    jdcanady Member

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    With regard to the "tree of life", it seems if they had eaten of it, they wouldn't have died a physical death.
     
  12. Mercury

    Mercury New Member

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    And Death and Hades, according to the verse before. I think there's something figurative there. [​IMG]

    Anabaptist, in my case. I'm not sure if annihilationism is more common among Anabaptists than Baptists, though. I know most people in my church don't agree with it.

    I'm a bit surprised by the lack of Scripture being presented by those who believe hell will be a place of eternal torment. I was expecting to learn something new in this thread, since this isn't a topic I've studied much, but the only references brought up have been to Revelation and the story of the rich man and Lazarus. It is interesting how these passages (of a vision and a parable) are taken at face value while clearer passages are ignored.
     
  13. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Perhaps I'll get more into this later, but the soul and spirit are separate.

    Would Romans 7:9 be included?

    Where does scripture clearly state those "suffer forever"?

    Then what is Paul's immortality that is found in I Cor. 15?

    What does "perish" mean? What does "destroy" mean?

    Why would they need it if Adam was created to physically live forever? Are you now saying Adam wasn't created physically to live forever?
     
  14. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    I would have a lot of questioning of the soul always being immortal so would lean to #3. I also wonder about consuming fire and the smoke rising for ever and evaporating into nothing like smoke does and the second death.

    Also looked up annihilationism and see it surfaced in the 1660 confession of the General Baptists although frowned upon now.
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I don't think the Luke 16 story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. It is not presented as a parable (as in "and he told them a parable") and Jesus gives the name of a person in the story, something not done in any other parable.

    As far as the rich man not being able to see God, I heard or read that the phrase "the bosom of Abraham" was a euphemistic term for being with God. I have not researched it but thought I would throw it there.
     
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    As for the terms "destroy" and "perish" being used to support annihilationism, here's an article responding to annihilationism:
    It's quite a good article. Pretty thorough.
     
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    From the same article, on the NT terms used to support annihilationism
     
  18. Mercury

    Mercury New Member

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    That's not quite true, because the way parables are presented is not that clear-cut. It is presented in the same form as many other parables. For instance, Luke 16 contains two stories. The first begins "There was a rich man who had a manager" (Luke 16:1). The second begins "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen" (Luke 16:19). The first story is obviously a parable. The second story is told in the same format. Neither story is clearly labelled as a parable.

    I'm sure every parable of Jesus is unique in some way. [​IMG] I think the parable of the good Samaritan is the only one where the nationality of a character is given (I could be wrong on that, though). I don't see why naming one character in a story would make it more likely to be historical.

    From the article you posted:
    In this article, the author often presents a strong argument from the opposing position, and then knocks it down by moving to a slightly different issue. For instance, above the quoted portion here he gives an argument based on Matthew 10:28 ("And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"). To answer it, he diverts to 1 Corinthians 1:18 and points out that this verse uses the present tense. The problem is that Matthew 10:28 does not use the present tense. He says that the verb "does not suggest that their _future_ state will be non-existence", but ignores that the passages commonly presented (Matthew 10:28, John 3:16) do speak of a future state.

    He is a clever wordsmith, but I didn't see any good reasons to accept all his redefinitions of words.
     
  19. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Reading the comments by others on this thread, I get the distinct impression that there is still some degree of confusion on the nature of the hereafter for the lost.

    While I do not think that anyone has all the answers, I believe that there is much data in the New Testament to give us a good understanding on the “nature of hell”. I shall look at some of the points raised, as see where my own understanding is on these issues.

    Firstly, I see there is some who suppose that the account in Luke’s Gospel on the Rich Man and Lazurus, is only a parable. For the sake of argument, let us suppose that it is. How does this change anything? A “Parable”, is from the Greek “parabole”, which means, “a placing of one thing beside another with a view to comparision”. Jesus Himself says why He used “parables”: “whereunto shall we liken the Kingdom of God? Or with what comparison shall we compare it?...and with many such parables spake He the word unto them, as they were able to hear.” (Mark 4:30,33). Jesus used everyday illustrations to get His point over. However, none of what He ever said was an untruth, was it? So with the account, or story of the Rich Man and Lazurus, either He was referring to an actual event of persons who were known to His hearers; or, He was speaking using an illustration of certain future events. In either case, what Jesus spoke here could only have been the truth. I doubt if any would question this?

    Secondly, those who hold to the third view, of “Conditional Immortality”, or, “Annhilationism”, are, in my opinion, reducing the nature of the Gospel, and undermining the entire process of Salvation. For, it must be asked. If Salvation in Jesus Christ is not the saving from hell and its consequences, where its consequences are seen as “eternal conscious suffering”, then from what exactly did Christ come to save us from? If the soul of man is not “immortal”, and only those who believe in Jesus Christ are said to be so, then what is the purpose of all the warnings in Scripture, about suffering, pain, torment, etc, all spoken in eternal future language? Further, the Bible speaks not only of the Resurrection of the Just in Christ, but also os those who are lost without Christ. Paul’s argument against those who doubt in a literal Resurrection of the body, in 1 Corinthians 15, says, if there is no Resurrection for those who are without Christ, then, “what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die” (15:32). In other words, the mentality of the sinner in this world has always been. Let us live live to the full, and enjoy every pleasure and sin there is, for once we die, this is the end, we will no longer exist. There is no “price to pay”, all the warnings in Scripture become a farce, as they were only metaphorical, and have no bearing on the lost. Jesus says, “Thou fool”! It is very evident from the words of Christ Himself, that the soul of man has to be “immortal”, for He speaks of “eternal life” and “eternal punishment” in the same verse in Matthew 25:46. If the “eternal” for “life” is to be taken in the literal sense, as “time without end”, there there is no reason why the same word in the next sentense, when used with “punishment”, is not also “time without end”? Only those who will wish to twist the plain meaning of Holy Scripture, will try to make a difference where there is none.

    Thirdly, there are some who will accept the view, that the “punishment” referrerd to by Jesus in places like Matthew 25:46, are not how we nornally understand the word to mean. They would take the Greek, “kolasis” to mean, “correction”, whereby, the punishment spoken of is only for the purpose of betterment, and those undergoing this, will eventually join the others in heaven, after a time. This is commonly known as the “Purgatorial View”. This view, in my opinion, as is that of “Conditional Immortality”, is an insult to the Justice of God.

    That the Greek word “kolasis” was used for “correction”, I will not deny. However, like many other words, its meaning and use changed, and it was also used to describe “suffering” without any notion of “betterment”. However, we simply cannot base our understanding on such an important doctrine on the meaning of one word, in one Scripture. Before we move on form here, we need ask one more question. If “kolasis” has the meaning “correction” in our text in Matthew, then there is no point in Jesus using with it the word “eternal”? Jesus is not here so much as speaking of the “effects” of the “punishment” of the wicked, but of the “duration” of this punishment, in that it is eternal. Jesus Himself did not see the future of “hell” as being a place of “betterment”, as He speaks of it as a place of “wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Mat. 13:42). Where the Greek shows extreme pain caused by intense suffering. So used by Homer in his Illiad. Not once does Jesus speak of hell as being a place where the wicked shall one day come out of.

    To continue from what I have said, I might add the following important factors. Jesus again speaks of “Gehenna”, as being a place, “where their worm dies not, and the fire is not extinguished” (Mark 9:44,26,48). It has wrongly been though that Jesus is referring to literal “worms” that live forever and “torment” the wicked. However, the exact phrase is “their worm” (personal pronoun), that is, the “body” of the wicked as not being “consumed” by the fires of hell. The word “quenched” (KJV) is from the Greek, “asbestos”, that is, “not consumed”

    Two more passages will shed more light on the nature of hell. In Jude 7, we read of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, where we are told, “…are set forth for an example, suffering vengeance of eternal fire” Note, that the Greek for “suffering” is “huperchousai”, literally, “undergoing”, which is in the “present tense”, indictaing, that at the time of Jude writing, this example of “suffering” was still “present”, still “going on”. The language used cannot be said to support any notion of “Annhilationism”. We read in Revelation 19:20, where the beast and false prophet were both “cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone”. This is BEFORE the 1000 years (whether a literal 1000 years or not, is no problem. It is nonetheless a very long period of time). We then read in the next chapter, “and the devil that deceived them was cast into ther lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever” (verse 10). So in the Greek. Here we read of the devil also being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone AFTER the 1000 years was over, where the beast and false prophet were also cast, 1000 yaers before. And, they are still there, “they shall be tormented”, which can hardly be used for only one person? No “Annhilationism” in Scripture!
     
  20. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I agree with you on this particular thing, TS. Will wonders never cease! :eek: :D

    It is clear that the rich man in hell had changed by wanting to give that warning. It's a shame he realized too late what it was all about!
     
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