Who am I? (Your worst nightmare!) just KIDDING!

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Bluefalcon, Nov 7, 2004.

  1. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon
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    Okay, everyone, I will say a little about myself. I'm a Virginian, married to a Floridian, and have a strong belief that THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN! Seriously now, came to know Christ at a young age. Father's a religion professor at a university in VA. Learned Greek under his instruction. Read the entire Bible in both the NIV and the KJV while in Junior High. Started noticing differences in the NT and my father had me read Burgon, Greenlee, Hodges, Kenyon, Nestle, Tregelles, Scrivener, Metzger, Aland. All these my Dad had in his office at home. Scrivener was my favorite as a gentleman, Burgon as a warrior.

    I understand the views of modern eclectics (pick & choose readings from among the "best" manuscripts), although am not persuaded by them. I agree that the best manuscripts should be followed, but disagree with modern eclectics as to what the best manuscripts actually are.

    Here's why: The lack of any reference to the church in Egypt before 180 is huge, as well as the historical fact that at precisely this time the greatest concentration of churches was in Asia Minor and along the Aegean coast of Greece. The first 150 years were by far the most important for the transmission of the Greek New Testament, because by the end of this time copies of the originals would have been multiplied exponentially where the church was the strongest (i.e. Asia Minor), and these mass of descendents would absolutely spell the future of the transmission of the Greek NT for centuries to come.

    Not until at or after this period around 180 does the church in Egypt appear, with Demetrius, then Clement, then Origen, etc. No doubt, we stand upon the shoulders of these giants, but, as the wild nature of the early Egyptian papyri shows, the text there was radically inconsistent. The text of the great uncials Sinaiticus and Vaticanus is so much more consistent than the early papyri (with the odd exception of P75) that help from manuscripts elsewhere had to contribute to stabilizing the Egyptian text. The "fuller" manuscripts that were brought in to Egypt were not always followed, however, in keeping with the logical textual critical principles of those like Origen, and old "traditional" readings from the inconsistent papyri were often retained. The influence of the great Fathers of Alexandria helped spread the readings of their edited "critical" text through their commentaries and influential associations. The making of a national Coptic version was a huge editorial and recensional accomplishment, and heavily dependent upon the great minds of Alexandria.

    But the readings of the "fuller" manuscripts that were brought into Egypt to help reconstruct and stabilize the text could not be controlled. They lay scattered throughout all Alexandrian witnesses. Even the early papyri have many instances of disagreement with the great Egyptian uncials all while agreeing with what are now called the Byzantines. The influence of Egypt was great, but not enough to overcome earlier and predominating influence of the ever-growing descendents of the originals throughout the rest of the empire. And the rest is history.

    That's my crude summary of the early transmission of our New Testament, for those who care. Currently, my wife and daughter and I serve in a restricted country in East Asia. You may guess if you like, but if you discover my name, please be careful what you put in print or I'll be back in the good ol' USA real fast!

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon

    p.s. THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN!
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Blue - Let me get this straight.
    </font>
    • You oppose "pick and choose" from among the manuscripts, but you rely on Catholic Humanist Erasmus, with just 6-8 manuscripts and the Vulgate for YOUR source?</font>
    • You oppose modern scholarship translating the Bible, but rely on 40 baby-baptizing Anglican Priests who HATED Baptists for YOUR source?</font>
    • You cast doubt on documents that God miraculously preserved because they were found in a monastery in Egypt or a Vatican Library, but rely on hundreds of copies of conflated documents from the Byzantine Eastern Orthodox Catholics as your source?</font>
    • You are a Virginian/Floridian patriot, saving Dixie cups.</font>
    Only one of your positions (#4) make sense to me! [​IMG]
     
  3. Anti-Alexandrian

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    All righ Bob-let me see if I am reading you right.
    I dont blame him!!
    Why is it you dont make mention to the fact that most textual critics basically used only TWO manuscripts??

    They throw away the majority of evedence supporting the Byzantine/Syrian MSS for the "two great Egyptian Unicals"
    Nothing like concistency!

    If I recall correctly,the fathers of modern textual critisism(W&H) were ANGLICAN also..The KJB translators may have been Anglican,but they had sense enough to reject the Heyschian/Jesuit mss of Alexandria.Again,nothing like consistency!!


    And not to mention PREPARED by Gnostics and Philosophers from Alexandria,Egypt.And no mention of Egypt and Scripture being synonomous.

    Seeing that Acts shows the word of God coming out of Syria/Byzantium,I'd say that is a WISE decision.

    Nothing like consistency!!!!!!
     
  4. gb93433

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    Consistently wrong. Relying on the majority text method is much like relying on pagans to tell the world what it the truth. After all there are more pagans than believers. So if the majority is right then the pagans are right and Christians wrong. So much for the majority text method.

    BTW modern day textualt critics have 5000+ manuscripts to examine. Mind telling how many the translators of the KJV had to work with?
     
  5. Logos1560

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    I dont blame him!!

    Nothing like consistency!!!!!!
    </font>[/QUOTE]Erasmus wrote: "Here is another labor, to examine and correct the different MSS ...
    and a great many of them, so as to detect which one has a better reading, or by collating a number of them to make a guess at the true and authentic version" (ERASMUS AND THE N. T., p. 69).

    Peter Ruckman acknowledged that the hero of Erasmus was Origen (KING JAMES ONLYISM, p. 10).
    Irena Backus observed that Theodore Beza often referred to Erasmus as being "too much under the influence of Origen" (REFORMED ROOTS OF THE ENGLISH N.T., p. 390. Eugene Rice noted that we "find Erasmus relying on the authority of Origen when he attacked Luther in 1524" (SAINT JEROME, pp. 91-92). John Gleason pointed out that "Erasmus thought one page of Origen worth ten of Augustine" (JOHN COLET, pp. 262-263). In his PARACLESIS TO THE N.T., Erasmus wrote: "If you refer to commentaries, choose out the best, such as Origen (who is far above all others)" (Hexter, TRADITIONS, II, p. 301).

    Anti-Alexandrian, it seems that you are trusting
    the "guesses" of a Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus
    who was influenced by Origen. How is that a consistent view?
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Excellent rebuttal, Logos. Thank you. The almost cult-like worship of Erasmus (Catholic) and Anglican Version translators (all RABIDLY anti-Baptist) is simply dumbfounding.

    As a Baptist, the AVonly crowd are as foreign to our historic position as is Mormon or Catholic.
     
  7. robycop3

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    Not to mention the great evangelist Apollos came from ALEXANDRIA. After he was saved, we don't know where all he went. Obviously he and Paul crossed paths, as paul mentions him later. But we don't know if he ever returned to Egypt to preach or not...and we don't know where Jesus' OTHER disciples besides the 11 apostles went. We simply CANNOT truthfully say, "It's from Egypt, therefore it's corrupt."
     
  8. Bluefalcon

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    Something is not getting through here. I am not KJVO/TRO. It's not that, as robycop3 summarizes, "It's from Egypt, therefore it's corrupt." My point was that the 100-150 years after the originals was the most important time for the geographical propagation of New Testament Greek manuscripts, and precisely during this time (before 180) there was no mention of the church in Egypt by anyone, whereas during this time in Asia Minor the church was more established than at any other time. The probabilities for a "better" text arising from outside Egypt are greater than that it would arise from inside Egypt. Go back and read my post a little more closely.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
  9. AVL1984

    AVL1984
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    I think the KJVo's are getting mixed up in the fact that Egypt was used to typify evil in the Bible, though Egypt in and of itself was not evil, so therefore they place that belief on ANYTHING that comes out of Egypt is evil. Wow...what a concept...does that mean because Japan attacked us in 1941 that everything made in Japan is anti-American or meant to hurt us??? What a concept indeed....the workings of the Onlyists mind. :rolleyes:
     
  10. HankD

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    I understand what Bf is saying. The very churches of Asia minor to which Paul brought the Gospel are the very churches which were the recipients and guardians of the NT Scriptures from the beginning.

    North Africa came into the picture later.

    However many experts tell us that it was within the first 100 years or so of apographs that these mss copies suffered the most Byzantine scribal corruption, especially "smoothings" and "conflations".

    Personally I'm not convinced but its not worth a civil war.

    p66 (pre-dates Aleph/B) although not Byzantine, has many "conflated" readings, identical to so-called Byzantine conflations.

    We need more mss research, resource and inventory, especially papyri.

    I have read that the Vatican has 1000's of uncatalogued mss squirreled away.

    Someone drop the Pope a line?

    HankD
     
  11. Phillip

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    Good luck at that. [​IMG]
     
  12. Dr. Bob

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    God's Word IS preserved. He promised that.
     
  13. Phillip

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    Amen! Doctor!

    It is wonderful that today we have many good translations to choose from and pick the one that fits our situation (such as reading level).

    Preach on! [​IMG]
     
  14. mioque

    mioque
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    "I have read that the Vatican has 1000's of uncatalogued mss squirreled away."
    "
    I have done some research at the Vatican archive and it seemed reasonably well catalogued at the time.
    1 more urban legend I fear.
     
  15. HankD

    HankD
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  16. HankD

    HankD
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    RE Ancient documents, etc.

    Yes, we understand.

    Found online in the public domain at: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Vatican%20Archive

    HankD
     
  17. mioque

    mioque
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    Those were the myths.The private archives of the last couple of popes make up the Vatican's secret archive. Those are not available for study. It takes a considerable number of decades after the death of a pope before access is allowed to his private archive.
     
  18. HankD

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    Well, apparently one public encyclopedia (see my previous post) has swallowed at least one of the "myths" concerning the disappearance of the pre-eighth century library.
    How does one lose an entire library?

    "Hmm, where did I put that thing?" , the Pope.

    HankD
     
  19. Ransom

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    HankD said:

    Well, apparently one public encyclopedia (see my previous post) has swallowed at least one of the "myths" concerning the disappearance of the pre-eighth century library.

    Thefreedictionary.com is based on Wikipedia, a "open source" encyclopedia. By design, literally anyone can contribute an article or change an existing one - even anonymously.

    This means that the information presented there is only as accurate as the authors. If someone swallows an urban legend and no one else knows better, it stands. There's no formal fact-checking or editing process. I like Wikipedia, use it frequently, and have even contributed an article or two myself, but critical thinking is indicated when using it or derivative sites as a source of accurate information.
     
  20. HankD

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    The Vatican admits to a "secret" Archive. They claim that no ancient Christian documents older than the 10th century are housed there.

    They allow limited research but can refuse anyone at will.

    I'm just speculating upon what they themselves have and what others have said also speculated.

    Expand the Archives of the Church of Rome to their entire mss possessions in this world if you wish to make my speculation a bit more credible.

    HankD
     

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