Who are the Children of promise ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jun 13, 2011.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

    Paul here was writing to gentile and jewish believers, all who belonged to Christ, Abraham's seed Gal 3:29

    29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise [As Isaac was].

    We see also see the phrase identification " The Children of Promise" in Paul's writing in regard to the Two Israel's in Rom 9:6-8

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Are Gentiles Children of Promise ? Yes, by all means, else would Paul's comments in Gal 4:29 be insignificant !

    How are Gentiles Children of Promise and Israel and not just ethnic jews ?

    Lets look at some scripture as it relates to Abraham and promises God made to Him.

    Gen 17:1-5

    1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.



    2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

    3And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

    4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    First of All, God identified Himself to Abram as El Shadday, The LORD Almighty, emphasizing His Power, as such God promises Abraham, that He would multiply him greatly [ see Gen 13:16 also]

    This is an unconditional Promise to Abraham to multiply His Offspring, as He is the Almighty.

    The word multiply is the hebrew word rabah and means:

    be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous

    to multiply, increase

    God had Promised Abraham Children, an offspring, descendants, this was according to God's Power and Promise much as with His Promise to Abraham in regards to Isaac.

    Now many have taken this promise in Gen 17:2 and applied it to Abraham's Natural Offspring, His Children of the Flesh, The Children of Israel according to the Flesh, but that is not the case, that is a false assumption, God is here promising Abraham a Spiritual Offspring, an Offspring that is of Faith, Just as He was made to be.

    This Offspring was given to Abraham, not as the Father of the Ethnic jews, but as the Father Spiritually of All Nations, this is seen in verses 4-5 of Gen 17:

    4As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    All People, whether jew or gentile who come to Faith or believe are the Children of Promise. Their coming to Faith is by the Power of and promise of El Shadday, The Almighty !

    The writer of Hebrews refers to this promise here Heb 6:12- 14

    12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

    13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

    14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

    The writer is Identifying those in vs 12, them who through Faith and Patience inherit the promises, as of that seed that God sware to Give to Abraham when He said to Him vs 14

    Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

    These are the Children that God promised to Abraham that He had made him a Father of many Nations, and when He first called his name Abraham Gen 17:5

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    So Abraham, as God promised, is the Father of all who believe:

    Rom 4:11,16

    And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    See, both jew and gentile believers are of one promised seed of Abraham.

    So, all True Believers, whether jew or gentile are the Children of Promise [Israel of God], born out of God's Promise to Abraham: Gen 17:2

    2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    Great question and great evidence to demonstrate that NATURAL Israel cannot be the "children of promise." Only SUPERNATURAL Israelites, those born by supernatural promise and supernatuarlly chosen before physical birth are the children of promise.
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Yes, The Children of Promise is Israel !

    Isa 45:17

    But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Rom 11:26

    And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
     
  4. savedbymercy

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    According to His Promise, God hath raised up a Saviour unto Israel !

    Acts 13:23

    Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Israel [Not Natural] is the Children of Promise, that is a elect people from all over the world.
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    So, all True Believers, whether jew or gentile are the Children of Promise [Israel of God], born out of God's Promise to Abraham: Gen 17:2

    2And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

    Believers in Christ are the results of God's Promise to Abraham, the Father of the Faithful, that He would multiply him exceedingly.

    You see, Just as God promised to Abraham Isaac, and delivered on that promise, so it is, with each believer in Christ of Abraham's seed. Gal 3:7

    Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    So Paul says of believers in Gal 4:

    28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise

    Paul is speaking to believers.
     
  6. Dr. Walter

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    All true believers are the children of promise but the argument in Romans 9-11 is concerning ETHNIC Israel as a nation and whether God has failed in keeping His promise to ETHNIC Israel.

    Romans 9 argues that not all ETHNIC Israel are children of promise but only those among ETHNIC Israel who are supernaturally born and elected according to God's purpose of Grace.

    Romans 10 argues that ETHNIC Israel as a nation has rejected the gospel.

    Romans 11 argues that ETNIC Israel's rejection of the gospel and God's rejection of them is but TEMPORARY and that the SAME ETHNIC Israel that has "stumbled" been "cut off" will be grafted in "again" and when God is finished with his redemptive work among the Gentiles he will turn again to ETHNIC Israel and "all Israel" will be saved according to His promise to the Fathers as the "all Israel" Paul refers to is NOW ENEMIES of the gospel and are "the sons of Jacob" (a term never used for Gentiles) but according to the purpose of election they are beloved.

    The same everlasting covenant of grace that saves all gentile believers is the same covenant of grace that saves "all Israel" as a ETHNIC people when Jesus comes again (Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10). The nation of Israel is saved at the coming of Christ on the same basis, same gospel, same covenant as gentile elect.
    You make a grave mistake in interpreting Romans 9-11 that God has rejected ETHNIC Israel as a NATION. Romans 2:28-29 has nothing to do with Gentiles but with Jews who are second born or circumcised in heart as they are part of the true ETHNIC Israel of God unto whom the promises were made AS A NATION.

    Gentile believers are promised children not through Israel but through "all nations of the earth" which was additional to the ETHNIC promise to Abraham. We are all in the same FAMILY of God and members of the same Kingdom of God and members in the congregations of God but Gentile believers are not spiritual ISRAEL. Spiritual Israel are twice born ethnic Jews who have been elected by God as promised Children to Abraham according to the promise given him but Gentile believers are promised children concerning "all nations of the earth" not Israel.

    The same everlasting covenant is the same basis for the salvation of individual gentiles as it is for the nation of Israel when Christ returns. The promise to Abraham included "all nations" as well as to those from his own loins as a nation. The nation of Israel is personified in Scripture as God's elect, and as every individual elect it was condemned under law during its time on earth and in rebellion as a nation (Exodus to the present) and will continue in this defiant stage until the gospel comes to them in power at the coming of Christ and "all Israel" shall be saved WHEN Christ comes out of heavenly zion to deliver them as an ELECT nation from sin.

    If God's promise to ETHNIC ISRAEL as "mine elect" fails so it can fail with every individual "elect" of God.
     
    #6 Dr. Walter, Jun 27, 2011
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  7. Fred's Wife

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    I agree with you up to this point

    You lost me here....are you saying that there was a "separate" promise "outside" of the Abrahamic Covenant for the Gentiles? My understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis 12:1-3) is that "all the nations/families (KJV) of the earth" would be blessed "in thee" (in Abram).

    God promised to bless Abraham and his nation and the entire world through his Seed, Jesus Christ, Abraham's Son. Those who inherit these blessings are the ones who believe (Galatians 3:6-29)

    I agree that the Gentiles are never called "spiritual Israel"

    I've never found the word "spiritual Israel" in Scriptures. Those twice born ethnic Jews become members of the Body of Christ/the Church. The twice born "Israeli" Jews are called the "Israel of God":

    Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

    Not all ethnic Jews are Israeli Jews.

    I love this verse:

    Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    All come to Christ the same way...Jew or Gentile. The ground is level at the foot of the cross.
    I am in agreement with your conclusion. I disagree with the use of the term "spiritual" Israel because I've never seen the term in Scriptures.
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    Yes, and paul in answering that question, shows that the promises were never to Ethnic Israel in the first place. The promises were always to Israel according to Promise, which Israel is comprised of all the Children of Promise, people of Faith, who were blessed with Abraham. Gal 3:9

    9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    Ethnic Israel in and of itself, is the equivalent of a Nation full of Ishmael's, rejected from being heirs. Thats Paul's answer to the same idea in Gal 4.
     
  9. Dr. Walter

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    You need to re-evaluate your position here because it is wrong - seriously wrong. Paul is not arguing that promises were never to ethnic Israel but rather they were never to UNREGENERATED NON-ELECT ethnic Israel. This is why Isaac and Jacob are given as examples of the ETHNIC Israelites who are partakers of the promise rather than Rahab the Harlot or some other promised child among the Gentiles.

    The promise children encompass more than REGENERATED ETHNIC ELECT ISRAELITES but include REGENERATED ELECT GENTILES as the promise to Abraham included his own ETHNIC nation as well as "the nations of the earth."

    The ETHNIC NATION of Israel is God's Elect PERSONIFIED as a person and in the history of this PERSONAFIED elect nation it was under condemnation, under sin, in definance but according to God's purpose of election there is an appointed time this PERSONIFIED ELECT nation will be saved so that "all Israel" is saved when Christ comes again.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    The Abrahamic promise included "the nations of the earth" as well as from his own loins without confusing the two or without one taking the place of the other.

    Israel as God's elect is PERSONIFIED and the life of this PERSONIFIED elect Israel begins with its "fathers" and then comes under the law, condemned by sin, in definance, taking on multiple religious views throughout its history and suffering the consequences of its sins throughout its PERSONIFIED history. However, Israel, PERSONIFIED as "mine elect" is chosen unto salvation at a specific time in its history just as individual elect are chosen unto salvation at a specific time in their history. The ELECT PERSONIFIED ISRAEL comes to Christ and salvation at the return of Christ (Rev. 1:7; Rom. 11:26-27; Zech. 12:10). When did you come to the point of salvation in the history of your life? Israel is PERSONIFIED as "mine elect" and Israel as a nation - "all Israel" is saved at the precise point in time in its history when Jesus comes out of Zion.

    "All Israel" here is the Israel previously described as "cut off" and "fallen" and later described as "enemies" presently concerning the gospel. What has been "cut off" is Israel as A NATION and what will be grafted in "AGAIN" is exactly what has been cut off.

    "All Israel" here is the Israel contrasted to the "gentiles" in all the previous verses (vv. 9-25) and it is the Israel that is called "sons of Jacob" (v. 27) and no gentile believer or unbeliever are ever called this.
     
  11. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    No its not, that is what you think, but my position is the Truth. Concerning Israel according to Flesh, in and of itself, they are not even the Children of God. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Ye best believe the inspired Apostle.
     
  12. Fred's Wife

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    Thank you for the clarification....I do agree with you here. :thumbs:
     
  13. Dr. Walter

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    You are jerking verse 8 out of context. Paul is simply denying that physical birth as an ethnic born Jew makes one a child of promise. Only TWICE born jews are children of promise and twice born jews are products of God's purpose of election. Hence, the children of promise among ETHNIC Israel are TWICE born Jews. The same is true with Gentiles they must be TWICE born to be children of promise as the promise to Abraham is inclusive of both God's promise to the nation born out of Abraham's loins as well as those born among "the nations."

    Romans 11 defies your position. The SAME Israel that is cut off is the SAME Israel that is grafted in "again." The SAME Israel that is contrasted with the Gentiles in verse 25 is the SAME Israel in verse 26 as no gentile saved or lost is ever referred to as the sons of "Jacob" (v. 27). The SAME Israel that presently was the enemy of the gospel when Paul wrote verse 28 is the SAME Israel that is beloved of the Father because of Election.

    In Scripture ETHNIC ISRAEL is personified as "mine elect" and called "Israel" long after Jacob had died. This personified Israel and "mine elect" is characterized the very same way as any individual "elect" of God. The PERSONIFIED nation orignated with an earthly "father" (Abraham) and during its history it was rebellious and degenerate and yet according to God's purpose of election there is a time appointed for "all Israel" to be saved just as there is a time appointed for every indivdiual elect to be saved and the time for Israel is at the coming of Christ out of heavenly zion (Rom. 11:26). This occurs when God is finished in calling out the children of promise among the Gentiles (Rom. 11:25) and then "all Israel" shall be saved in keeping with God's covenant with Abraham concerning those of his own loins or the sons of "Jacob" (v. 27).
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    dw:

    Thats a poor excuse for not receiving the Truth that verse teaches.

    Thats false, ethnic Israel considered in and of itself are not the Children of God. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Ethnic Israel in and of itself, are the children of the flesh, comapred to Ishmael and Isaac, Isaac being a Child of Promise.

    So in essence, Israel according to the flesh only, are a Nation of Ishmaels.
     
    #14 savedbymercy, Jun 28, 2011
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  15. Dr. Walter

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    I never denied the truth the verse teaches but placed that truth in its proper context! I clearly stated the context and clearly stated the truth as applied to that context. The truth of the context is that AMONG ETHNIC ISRAEL the only children of promise are TWICE BORN Jews as this context has ETHNIC ISRAEL as its focus and that is precisely why there is no examples of GENTILES given in this context to illustrate that truth.

    The objection that Paul is responding to is, if God made these promises (vv. 4-5) to ETHNIC ISRAEL then has God failed to keep His Promises since ETHNIC ISRAEL has rejected Christ? Has His Word failed? The Pauline answer is no because not every ethnic Jew is the object of this promise but only SUPERNATURAL BORN Jews as in the case of Isaac and ELECT Jews as in the case of Jacob.

    In Romans 11 the objection that Paul is responding to is, since ETHNIC ISRAEL AS A NATION has rejected Christ is God through with ETHNIC ISRAEL? The answer again is no! Paul gives examples of ETHNIC ISRAEL in the past when ISRAEL as a NATION rejected the prophets of God (Elijah) and yet God did not completely discard them but maintained a "remnant" while bringing judgement upon the nation. Paul claims the present STUMBLING of Israel as a nation is not permenant but temporary and it is for a specific purpose in God's plan of redemption of the Gentiles and that when God is through calling out a people from the Gentiles He will graft Israel in "again" and "all Israel shall be saved" at God's appointed time - the second coming of Christ as Ethnic Israel as a nation is personified as God's "elect" and there is an appointed time for all His elect to be saved and such is the case with ETHNIC ISRAEL as a nation.

    Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
     
    #15 Dr. Walter, Jun 28, 2011
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  16. Eric B

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    http://evangelicalarminians.org/She...dgment-A-Libertarian-Reading-of-Romans-9.6-29

    Just getting ready to start a discussion on this. This is my wife's professor in a required Master's class she just finished, and she had to read the paper, and gave it to me when finished; (since I'm the one more into these kinds of arguments), and I finished it last week.

    The guy is five-point Arminian, and insists salvation can be lost; but otherwise, it is a very good contextual treatment of Romans 9. The best one I've seen (not as provocative as others like Vance or Hunt, but just as much driving the point home).
     
  17. Thinkingstuff

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    What's his position on this subject? I personally hold that Jesus fulfills all the OT and promises for Judaism. I believe that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD emphasises that. That all Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus are the true heirs of Abraham by faith. I don't hold to a paranthetical period called the church age. And I wait in ernest for Jesus 2nd comming which harolds the consumation of all things. My beliefs on this subject are pretty simple.
     
  18. Eric B

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    His position on "children of promise" is that they are anyone who is saved as opposed to "children of the flesh".

    In a note he says:

    "...it seems more likely that election language simply has in view God’s initiative in
    salvation. I owe this insight to I.H. Marshall: ‘The Problem of Apostasy in New
    Testament Theology’, in his Jesus the Saviour: Studies in New Testament Theology
    (Downers Grove/Leicester: IVP, 1990), 320: ‘…the primary function of the election
    language in the Bible is to stress that God takes the initiative in salvation and that his
    purpose is to create a people who will attain to that salvation. But it is never said that
    this means either that there is a non-elect section of humanity who cannot attain to
    salvation or that there is a fixed group of previously chosen “elect” who will be called,
    justified and glorified in some automatic fashion."
     
  19. Thinkingstuff

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    I agree with this entire. I am also not a Calvinist.
     
  20. Dr. Walter

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    Anyone who states that election is only God "initiative" in salvation simply is void of Biblical understanding on this subject. Election is God's choice of a LIMITED portion of man kind, those given to the Son by the Father for the purpose to give eternal life unto them (Jn. 17:2; 6:37,39; 2 Thes. 2:13) that they may be holy (Eph. 1:4) and is unconditioned upon any forseen good or evil they will do (Rom. 9:11).

    The term "elect" or "chosen" is invalidated in meaning if one says there is no such thing as non-elect or a portion of humanity not chosen. It means to chose out from among others and it means that in our own culture and usage. What do you think you do at the voting booth? What do you think you do at the salad bar? What do you think you do at the clothing store?

    This professor simply ignores all the Biblical evidence. Here is a little exercise for you and Thinkingstuff. Define who is included in the word "all" in the following text and then see if it makes any sense to make the term "all" equal to the term "as many as thou hast given" in the same text?


    John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
     
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