Who Are the Two Witnesses of Rev 11?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Jul 4, 2006.

  1. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who are the two witnesses of Rev. 11?

    The most common answer I've heard is that they are Moses and Elijah.

    In another thread, LeBuick opined that they are Enoch and Elijah.

    In looking at Rev. 11:4, we see that the two witnesses are described as two candlesticks and two olive trees. It appears that each witness is described as a candlestick and an olive tree. Each is the same two things.

    From Rev. 1:20, Jesus defines a candlestick. It is a church. A local church, as a matter of fact.

    Paul, in Romans 11, describes Gentile believers as wild olive branches grafted onto the olive tree, Israel, receiving nourishment from the roots of the tree.

    Zechariah spends the entire 4th chapter on a golden candlestick and two olive trees.

    So, a case can be made that the two witnesses are symbolic of a group of Gentile believers and believing Jews, who, shortly after the beginning of the tribulation, empowered by God to preach, gifted with supernatural power and protected from harm for 3-and-a-half years. Their message arouses hatred. God allows the beast to kill them, an act whch produces world-wide rejoicing.

    Then, 3-and-a-half days later, God raises them from the dead and takes them up to heaven in a cloud. Some might call it a mid-tribulation rapture.

    This scenario obviously won't fly for dispys and historical pre-mils, or a-mils either.

    So, who are the two witnesses, and what is the basis for your view?

    Release the hounds!!
     
  2. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Messages:
    897
    Likes Received:
    0
    Identity of the Two Witnesses

    Dear Tom,

    I notice you joined in the same month as I; but you have more postings!

    Your introduction is the best I have seen on the two olive trees and two
    candlesticks representing (hopefully) the OT and NT Churches, i.e., the
    OT body of believers that scriptures recognize as a "Church" and the NT
    Church which is now being "grafted into the same Olive Tree" that was the OT Church ... that is, if my analysis should be accepted by you.

    My challenge is that the NT Candlestick should have a NT prophet as its
    representative just as the OT Candlestick has its Rep, i.e., Elijah. IMO, the only NT Rep that qualifies as a Prophet (who has not yet tasted death) is the Apostle John!

    My Website receives the more inquiries than any other subject, into the thousands each month, for the evidence that the *Apostle John* is the NT Prophet who has not yet experienced death and who "must prophesy again before many nations, kindreds, tongues and kings". Rev.10:11.

    But I disagree on your timing. The Two Witnesses will "rise up" within just 3 1/2 days of the 7th Trumpet. Contrary to the dispy teaching, that 7th Trumpet is the *Last Trump* and sounds on the *Last Day* ... the Day Christ comes in glory and power ... one of the days "after the great tribulation", i.e., one of the days after the 1260 days of *chronos-time* cease. The Two Prophets "finish their task" when the 1260 days of Chronos-Time end!! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
  3. go2church

    go2church
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    4,304
    Likes Received:
    6
    After reading your posts I think I am going to have rethink my belief that the two witnesses are Fred Flintstone and Barney Rubble.
     
  4. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,454
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible says that it is appointed unto man once to die. Since Enoch and Elijah never died, would it not make sense that it would be them who come back as the two witnesses so that they can meet that one appointment that all man must face?

    Think about it a moment...

    Enoch walked with God, as was not, for God took him. I heard a preacher once say the two walked together conversing and God finally told Enoch, 'We are much closer to my Home than yours. Come on to my House.'

    Oh to be in such a fellowship with God as Enoch was!

    Elijah is another one who left this earth without dying. He went up into the heavens in a chariot of fire inside a whirlwind. Talk about an experience there!

    Neither man died... as we know death.
     
  5. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Messages:
    897
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Two Witnesses

    StandingfirmforChrist,

    Brother, some good thoughts to go by in our Christian walk!

    But please do not misinterpret what it means to die "once".
    Lazarus died twice. And Enoch and Elijah did not die at all.
    Enoch may not die even "once" ... unless he becomes one
    of the Two Witnesses!

    However, more evidence points to John the Apostle having
    never died than to having died ... both scripturally and
    traditionally. Apostle John is qualified to "prophesy again
    before many nations, kindred, tongues and kings". Rev.10:11.

    Jesus suggested that John might "live until He comes". Jesus
    also revealed that He is coming in Kingdom Power before He
    comes in Person to resurrect the Two Prophets; and that "some
    standing (T)here will not taste death until AFTER they see
    His Kingdom power and authority" for 1260 days. Mark 9:1;
    Rev.12:10,14.
    Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:
     
  6. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would agree with SFIC's logic, however the bottom line is we are not told who they are. With that being said I think when we compare Scripture with Scripture that it is a pretty safe say that Elijah will be one of them because of prophecy regarding the spirit of Elijah.

    Many thought John the Baptist was Elijah come back to pave the way for the Messiah, and then a number thought Jesus was Elijah come to do the same thing. So it seems that the Jews of that day expected a return of Elijah to usher in the reign of the Messiah.
     
  7. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree

    If this is so, then how does Elijah fit into the equasion?

    I have no problem with this, however, have you heard of them representing the two priesthoods, Levitical and Melchizedek? This helps with Rev 1:20
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14


    Yea, including Jesus.


    Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
    Mat 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
    Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
    Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.




    I believe they are the Law and Prophets as represented by Moses and Elijah.

    Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.
    Rev 11:5 And if any man desireth to hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devoureth their enemies; and if any man shall desire to hurt them, in this manner must he be killed.
    Rev 11:6 These have the power to shut the heaven, that it rain not during the days of their prophecy: and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they shall desire.

    Elijah Preformed this:

    2Ki 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
    2Ki 1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

    Jam 5:17 Elijah was a man of like passions with us, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain; and it rained not on the earth for three years and six months.

    Moses preformed this:

    Exo 7:19 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thy hand over the waters of Egypt, over their rivers, over their streams, and over their pools, and over all their ponds of water, that they may become blood; and there shall be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood and in vessels of stone.

    The Law and the Prophets testified of Christ

    Mat 17:2 and he was transfigured before them; and his face did shine as the sun, and his garments became white as the light.
    Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elijah talking with him.

    But with the passing of the Old Covenant there was only Jesus:

    Mat 17:8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, save Jesus only.



    Of course it all depends on what one believes the Book of Revelation is describing and to whom it is dealing with.
     
  9. mima

    mima
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    This topic was disgusted many times in my childhood home. And the conclusion I reached at that time(even before I was saved) would be in complete agreement with StandingfirminChrist.
     
  10. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    But John the Baptist was not Elijah, because all things were not restored. That will happen in the future. That's why it was physically John the Baptist. He came in the spirit of Elijah, but the whole reason why it wasn't physically Elijah at that time is because God knew Israel wasn't going to accept the King and He knew the kingdom was not going to be set up.

    Jesus could still say that becuase the offer of the kingdom was still open to the nation of Israel and the Israelites could have still repented and been baptized, but again God forknew that they weren't going to.

    When Elijah is back in the flesh it will be to pave the way for the establishment of the kingdom. It will happen.

    It hasn't happened yet. We must compare Scripture with Scripture.
     
  11. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is a subject that is interesting to speculate on, but in reality no one knows for sure who they will be.
     
  12. Mel Miller

    Mel Miller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Messages:
    897
    Likes Received:
    0
    Two Witnesses

    PastorSBC1303,

    The Two Prophets are not only good for speculation; but they will become the most important persons in the lives of Believers for the final 1260 days!

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  13. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2003
    Messages:
    15,125
    Likes Received:
    0
    The most important person in the lives of the believers should forever and always be Jesus Christ.
     
  14. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumbs: :applause:
     
  15. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumbs: :applause:
     
  16. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    .


    Then Jesus was wrong:

    Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already,

    Seems like a clear statement to me.

    Luke in recording the birth of John says he will do exactly what Malachi said Elijah would do:

    Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

    It didn't say he "might".



    The reason it wasn’t physically Elijah is because it was never meant to be. The disciples figured it out, eventually.

    Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.




    Then that makes Daniel's prophecy wrong as well when he prophesied when the Kingdom would be established. Just exactly where does it state the Kingdom was conditional on Jewish acceptance? It is His Kingdom, not the Jew's Kingdom.



    What scripture did you compare with other scripture? It sure wasn’t Malachi with Luke and Matthew.

     
  17. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    The principle of double-fulfillment of prophecy is being demonstrated perfectly in the example of John the Baptist. Just because he was a partial fulfillment of the prophecy of Elijah coming to first restore all things does not mean there is not a future literal fulfillment of the prophecy to come.
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2002
    Messages:
    3,348
    Likes Received:
    14
    Where may we find this principle in scripture? How many prophecies have double-fulfillment? Which ones are they and who decides which ones they are? If double fulfillment is allowed how about triple?

    But I'm glad to see you believe that John was the Elijah of Malachi. Since John was Elijah, what "Day of the Lord" occured in that time-frame?
     
  19. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    It was a partial fulfillment, the day of the Lord did not occur. Lets see if we can find any prophecies that had double fulfillments.

    Isaiah 7
    11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
    12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Here is the near-term partial fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14
    Isaiah 8:3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

    but we are told that Jesus' birth was the fulfillment of that prophecy

    Matthew 1:22-23
    22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
    23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Was Isaiah 7:14 not a sign to Ahaz?
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a cross-post, I didn't read the post of Bro James_Newman until
    AFTER my posting.

    Grasshopper: //Where may we find this principle in scripture?//

    Frequently the fulfillment of a prophecy is NOT in scripture.
    So this principle isn't frequently found in scripture but
    is found among those with the ability to count to TWO
    or higher.

    Isa 7:14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Therefore the Lord himselfe shal giue you a signe:
    Behold, a Uirgine shall conceiue
    and beare a Sonne,
    and shall call his name Immanuel.

    First Fulfillment:
    Isa 8:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
    And I went vnto the Prophetesse,
    and shee conceiued and bare a sonne,
    then said the Lord to mee,
    Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

    Second Fulfillment:
    Mat 1:23 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Behold, a Uirgin shall be with childe,
    and shall bring foorth a sonne,
    and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
    which being interpreted, is, God with vs.)



    Grasshopper: //How many prophecies have double-fulfillment?//

    More now than 2,000 years ago.
    More at the end of the literal/physical Millinnial Messanic Kingdom
    than now.


    Grasshopper: //Which ones are they and who decides which ones they are?//

    Your prophile lists you as a Baptist.
    You know Baptist Doctrine.
    You get to decide which one(s) are double fulfilled -
    you have the role within the doctrine: Priesthood of the Believer.

    Grasshopper: //If double fulfillment is allowed how about triple?//

    What about prophicies that are fulfilled in the life of Billions
    of Christians? Aren't they BILLION fullment prophecies.
    Whosover will may come.
     
    #20 Ed Edwards, Jul 4, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 4, 2006

Share This Page

Loading...