Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jul 25, 2012.

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  1. Skandelon

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    Calvinists often use John 6 as a proof text to support their premise, but doesn't it help to understand WHO Christ may be referring to when he speaks of those who have been given to him?

    Let's read later in the name gospel (chapter 17) where Jesus clearly shows us what he is speaking about when He speaks of 'those thou hast given..."

    6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
    9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
    13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
    14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. {sanctified...: or, truly sanctified}
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. (Joh 17:6-26 KJV)​

    Clearly, those given to Christ while on earth were the appointed messengers of Israel who were to fulfill the purpose of Israel's election by taking the message of redemption to the world. The rest of Israel was being hardened (John 12:39) which is why they were unable to come to Christ. It was only after Christ was lifted up that he sent these appointed messengers (and the Spirit to indwell them) to proclaim the gospel, by which he would 'draw all men to himself.' (John 12:32)

    This is the context in which we must understand John 6.
     
  2. convicted1

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    I couldn't agree more with this OP. The "Jewish heirarchy" were the ones who were for Jesus' crucifixion(sp?), because they were blinded and hardened. Also remember, they had turned the office of High Priest into a political position, in which they were voted in, or out, from year to year, if I remember correctly. It came to the point where man appointed who was High Priest, and not God. Also, throughout Malachi, you can read where they corrupted the Lord's altar with polluted bread, in that they gave their worst and not best. It was through years of continual rebellion that God hardened their hearts.


    IOW, the ones who came were evidently those who weren't hardened, and those who didn't come, were.
     
  3. Skandelon

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    I agree.

    It just seems that much of the confusion over this passage stems from our negligence to understand the historical context of the day. When you understand that Jesus' Jewish audience was being hardened by God (John 12:39) and only a few from Israel were being given to Christ at that time (John 17), but that once Jesus is raised up he will send these appointed messengers out with a message making an appeal to 'every creature, to be reconciled' thus drawing all men to himself (John 12:32), then you can understand the intent of the passage.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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  5. Skandelon

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    You know, I don't have a problem understanding John 12:32 as meaning "people from all nations," as that is beside the point. In fact, I'm willing to concede that John 12:32 is really more about Jews and Gentiles corporately if you are willingly to concede the same about John 6? How about it?
     
  6. convicted1

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    We see the Cals post the verse(s) where God hardens who He will, and will have mercy on whosoever He will, and when we agree with them, they take humberage with us?
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Sure it helps. Clearly in Jn 6 :37-44 Jesus is speaking of each and everyone of the elect given to Him before the world was, who are drawn to saving faith in real time:wavey::thumbs:

    This mis-guided thread seeking to exclude them from jn 6, or jn 17 ...is foolishness.

    it would have you saying that all men wanted to be apostles....but they could not unless drawn by God ....jn 6:44....when scripture is clear that the apostles were ordained of God as apostles.......sorry, but you must try to oppose truth somewhere else:laugh:

    Ps, your frequent mis-use of the hardening of some in Israel to fragment God's revelation....does not work either.....
     
  8. Skandelon

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    There are two types of biblical hardening; each are described in detail below:

    1. Self-Hardening of the heart goes beyond the tragic obtuseness of our inherited condition in the Fall of man. Working on the fertile soul of our innately immoral hearts, the act of sinning hardens the heart into a stubborn rebellion against all that is good. So, people may harden their own hearts, in sinful rebellion, in bitterness, or in sheer self-will. (Ex. 9:34-35; 2 Chron. 36:13; Zech. 7:12; Dan. 5:20; Eph. 4:18; Heb. 3:12-15)

    This type of self-hardening is most clearly seen in Zech. 7:11-13:

    "Your ancestors would not listen to this message. They turned stubbornly away and put their fingers in their ears to keep from hearing. They made their hearts as hard as stone, so they could not hear the law or the messages that the LORD Almighty had sent them by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. That is why the LORD Almighty was so angry with them. ‘Since they refused to listen when I called to them, I would not listen when they called to me,’ says the LORD Almighty.”

    2. Judicial Hardening -- In a few instances such as Pharaoh and the Egyptians (Ex. 7:3; 9:12), Sihon, king of Heshbon (Deut. 2:30), and the Hivites living in Gibeon (John 11:19-20), it is said that God hardened their hearts. Apparently these people were so irremediable in their rebellion against God that God entered into the hardening process so that he could accomplish his purposes in spite of, and yet in and through, that hardenness. It is God's prerogative, as God, to do this (Rom. 9:18-21). That they are morally responsible for their condition is a theological given, and we are warned not to harden our hearts as they did, a command that would make no sense if hardening were simply God's act (1 Sam. 6:6).

    Israel's hardening as a nation was an act of self-hardening followed by God’s act of judicial hardening as clearly portrayed in the scripture (Matt. 23:37; Rom. 10-11).

    God tells Isaiah that Israel, with its calloused heart, will reject him as God's messenger when he goes to them (Isa. 6:9-10). The event was taken as prophetic by Jesus (Matt. 13:14-15) and Paul (Acts 28:25-27) as referring to Israel's rejection of Jesus as God's Messiah. For Paul, Israel's hardening paved the way to a ministry of ingrafting the Gentiles (Rom. 10-11; Acts 28:28) and was not intended by God to be final, but only until the fullness of the Gentile’s ingrafting was accomplished.

    Only the Word of God has the power to cut or pierce a hardened heart (Heb. 4:12) and he has given that word through his Son, the Apostles, the scriptures and by his Spirit all of which can be resisted and ignored as seen throughout the Bible as the hardenness and callousness of the heart only grows thicker with each act of rebellion.

    According to scripture only those in a hardened state are unable to see, hear, understand and believe (Acts 28:26-28: John 12:39-40). Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that everyone is born in this condition due to the Fall of Man. The doctrine of Original Sin can clearly be seen in the scripture, but the Calvinistic system takes this foundational truth one step further by teaching that after the Fall God removed men’s capacity to respond to the call of the gospel, yet God, according to Calvinism, still holds men responsible for that response.
     
  9. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. quantumfaith

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    You give correct definitions of hardening. It is your editorial comments that go astray.

    Where have calvinists said that God removed mans capacity???

    Sin and death have brought spiritual death to man....

    Where does God remove any capacity???

    The fall was fatal....Adam died....he was not just slightly wounded.[spiritually]

    Mans inability to respond is said to be from sin and satan. Do not blame God.

    Pharoah we are told hardened his own heart , before God confirmed him in the state of reprobation. The same is true of the Isa.passage ,quoted of some in Israel.


    No...according to you that is so. According to scripture all natural men lack the ability. The carnal mind cannot be subject to God's word....apart from Divine enablement.
     
    #11 Iconoclast, Jul 27, 2012
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  12. Skandelon

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    Well, according to Calvinism, the very least you could say is that their capacity is removed and God is Sovereign. Who, if not God, decided what the result of the fall would be? Who, if not God, decided that all men would become totally depraved from birth due to the Fall, thus unable to willingly respond to a God who is genuinely calling them to be reconciled?

    By whose sovereign decree? What exactly are you trying to avoid here Icon?

    If you believe that then why when in defense of Calvinism to you quote Romans 9:20: But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

    Isn't that your defense proof text for when people 'blame God' for men being hardened (totally depraved)? Paul doesn't say, "Don't blame God," so why do you?

    We agree.

    Again, we agree. We just disagree as to the means and effectuality of this so-called 'divine enablement.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Skandelon
    God was sovereign before the fall, and God is still sovereign after the fall.

    God graciously warned of the consequence of sinful rebellion'


    God clearly explained ......Dying.....thou shalt surely die:thumbs:

    Do you like Adam......not believe God's word???? It was not a joke. It was literally deadly serious. You know this on one hand, but you keep squirming and trying to blameshift mans sin to God, God's decree, God's judgement.

    Adam...being warned of God...of things not yet seen.....set aside God's warning, failing to maintain life and communion.

    Noah we are told......being warned of God of things not yet seen,,,moved with fear and prepared an ark to the saving of his household.

    We are more like Noah now[post fall man]......we must move with fear and obey the revealed word of God.
    No...you are wrong here again. God's warning to Adam was life and death!
    He told him of the penalty of sinful rebellion. He only needs to tell us once.
    Like the rich man in luke 16....he wants someone to go back and warn his brothers, lest they also go to hell.....but he is told...NO....wrong, they have Moses and the prophets....
    What God has decreed to come to pass.....comes to pass. His Holy judgements are completely righteous, and just.


    I am only trying to avoid you and others ...blaming God ...for what He has clearly revealed, and shifting the blame from Adam to God...like Adam tried to blame God for Eve....the woman you gave me, she gave me the fruit and i did eat.......you and the others are non stop blaming God.
    I am not avoiding anything...I believe God on these things.:wavey:



    I only appeal to this text in Romans when someone wants to speculate on the secret things, as in Deut 29;29
    29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law

    The secret things......some of the why questions are not fully revealed.....they are God's buisness....

    Those that ARE revealed, belong to us and our children, The Covenant, election, predestination, justification , sanctification, glorification, the eternal state, Union with Christ all belong to the Elect sheep, God's true Covenant Children.
    Like the saints in Rev 19;;;; I will be able to say clearly:
    19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

    3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    I leave the judgement of God....to God. I do not wickedly question or ascribe any hint of evil to the Lord God, who alone is Holy and Just. Never
    :thumbs: I urge all here on BB to follow the saints in rev 19, who in heaven see clearly the right judgement of God.
     
  14. Van

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    Just a few quick notes. Is the same group in view in both John 6:37 and John 17:6? Christ had not died yet, so those given to Christ out of the world were given physically. But in John 6:37 this refers to Christ being the bread of life, which He did not become until He died on the cross. So we have two groups, the people given to Christ during His lifetime before crucification and those given to him after He became the propitiation for the whole world.

    Second, notice that one of those given out of the world, Judas, was cast out and lost, whereas in John 6:37 none will be cast out.

    Bottom line, the effort to assert that these two verses are referring to the same thing seems wide of the mark.
     
  15. convicted1

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    Hey, where are my "thumbs" at? Bro. Skan and I are in agreement here, ya know?
     
    #15 convicted1, Jul 28, 2012
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  16. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  17. Skandelon

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    I agree. That is the second fold of sheep that Jesus speaks of in John 10. John 17:20 points to this as well. :thumbsup:

    He is pointed out as the exception later in John 6, just as he is in John 17.

    And you seem to be disagreeing for no good reason. Sometimes I get the feeling you just like to disagree? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  18. Skandelon

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    Right, but does that change the fact that HE is the one who determined what those consequences would be? Didn't God decide when Adam ate of the forbidden fruit that all mankind would be born enemies, unable to willingly respond to God's genuine appeal for reconciliation?

    Yes or no, and why?
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Let's make something clear. I reject Calvinism BECAUSE I refuse to 'blame shift man's sin to God,' which I think is exactly what Calvinism does. They do so while quoting verses like Romans 9:20-21, where God is certainly 'blamed' for wrath /hardening and giving men over to their disobedience.

    A penalty He determined, right or wrong?

    If you want to really stop blaming God then renounce Calvinism. :godisgood:

    Yet, Calvinists application of Romans 9:20-21 is that God is the one who makes some for wrath and some for salvation, and you accuse ME of accusing God??? Irony at its greatest! :laugh:
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    No Calvinist believes this, at least none I am familiar with. Don't blame Calvinism because of your ignorance of the system.
     
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