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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jul 25, 2012.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I was responding to his accusation of ME blaming God, when I was simply speaking of the implications of HIS system.

    In Calvinism God ordained/decreed/decided to make all of mankind totally depraved from birth as a result of Adam's sin, thus making them unable to respond to HIS own genuine appeal to be reconciled. So, in Calvinism's worldview, God has ordained for all men to become His enemies and he has ordained for all men to not be able to respond to His appeal to be reconciled. Those are just the facts. If you all want to call that "blaming God," then that is your business...but its the FACTs of YOUR belief system.

    In fact, I think you all know that, which is why you quote Romans 9:20-22 in defense of what you believe.
     
  2. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Grasshopper, Skan is anything BUT IGNORANT, of calvinism. He speaks the truth of the scripture he quoted if one is to intellectually consistent.
     
  3. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    I think perhaps Skan...."blame" is the "offensive" word. Most...."I think" would simply say and argue that it was by His deterministic decision and decree, the result is nonetheless the same. According to the Calvinist position, God is culpable.
     
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Skandelon
     
    #24 Iconoclast, Jul 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2012
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The disciples were chosen before Christ died, and therefore were given for a different purpose - to present the gospel to the world - than the topic of John 6:37.

    Yes, when Jesus is talking to and about the disciples, Judas is mentioned. But my point, no one cast out differs from the idea of being given disciples to spread the word and betray the Messiah.

    When you hit the mark, I post that you hit the mark. However, when you miss, as here, I post what I believe is truth. What you may be discerning is that my views differ from the mainstream views of both Calvinism and Arminianism, and therefore I might seem overly disagreeable. :)
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Right. I'm not sure why you'd think I'd disagree with that?
    No, actually, I don't see any discernible difference in my view from what you are saying, which leads me to think you may be overly disagreeable. But maybe I'm not understanding what it is you're attempting to say.
     
  7. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Thank you!! LOL
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I said the effort to make the two verses refer to the same group of people was in error. You agree with that assessment.
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Oh really! LOL. No wonder you take the position you do....too funny!:laugh:
     
  10. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Ahhh Brother Grasshopper, you have caught on!

    Like most of us, you will probably just get disgusted with the nonsense & not even waste your time bothering to fight it. Thats why most have moved on ....better than doing this...:BangHead:
     
  11. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :sleep::sleep::sleep:
     
  12. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Thank you Brother Icono for speaking the truth! :applause:
     
  13. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Calvin said that neither Satan nor men are able to conceive or perform sin unless God commands it.

    Read for yourself, Calvin said the devil and all the ungodly are held in all directions by the hand of God so that they cannot CONCEIVE mischief or PLAN what they conceive, nor how so much ever they have planned can they move a single finger to PERPETRATE evil unless he permits, no, unless so far as he COMMANDS them to do so, and that they are FORCED to do him service.

    If this is not making God the author of evil, I do not know what is!

    At least Calvin was honest about what he believed, and did not contradict himself.
     
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    That is NOT what he's saying. He is saying that God restrains evil as with a "bridle". And even evil ones must obey God. He is saying that we can be comforted that evil can only go so far as God allows. God is sovereign, evil is not.
     
  15. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    no one can do any sin unless God permits then to do it. In other words, God is sovereign and nothing happens in the world 1) without him knowing it and 2) that he couldn't stop if he so wanted to.

    Further, God has a plan for the world and nothing happens at random. Think of Jesus being betrayed by Judas and killed by the Jews. Think of Joseph's brothers selling Joseph. They meant evil, but God meant good.
     
  16. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    "FORCED to do him service" I think winman misread that.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Is that what he said? ROFL....trying to twist Calvin's words to meet his agenda of calling Calvinist essentially Fatalists! :laugh:

    I no longer read commentary by some on here, rather I use the IGNORE feature....but that is the funniest stretch Ive heard in a while.

    Thank you Amy for clearing that up1 I must say, I continue to be impressed by your clarity of understanding. The Holy Spirit has greatly blessed you my sister in Christ. :godisgood:
     
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Give me a break, Calvin said that the devil and the ungodly cannot even CONCEIVE of mischief unless God commands it.

    You can deny all you want, Calvin was very clear about what he said.
     
  19. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    You are misreading it. He says: " they are not only bound by his fetters, but are even forced to do him service,"

    They are under God's command and authority. That is the point he is making. He is not saying that God authors evil.
     
  20. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    That is not the point I am contending. Calvin said the devil and the ungodly are not able to CONCEIVE mischief unless God commands it. The word "conceive" means to invent or originate this mischief. Calvin is saying that the devil and the ungodly are not even able to originate or invent an evil thought unless God commands it. The devil cannot have an evil thought within himself, God has to command it before Satan has this ability.

    You can deny all you want. It is one thing to say God permits evil, that is obvious. It is altogether different to say the devil and all ungodly angels and men cannot CONCEIVE evil unless God commands it. This is absolutely making God the author of sin.

    Deny all you want, this is what Calvin wrote.
     
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