Featured Who are, "Those thou hast given to me..."

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Nice to see a semi Pelagian actually studying Calvin! Now where I wonder did you actually find it since I did not see any notification of authenticity. But seriously, who gives a spit about Calvin's commentary anyway.....for the most part, we are Baptists on this forum & we dont follow brother John Calvin as say the Presbyterians or the Dutch Reformed Churches do so your own commentary is essentially a mute point.

 

You have it quite backwards.... Calvinism believes God. It believes in His righteous judgement. My other post got cut off, but I asked you this question-


You seem eager to post about Romans 9...but you start at the wrong verse.

start here;

Calvinism agrees with Paul when he says...may it never be. Can you agree with this statement????
Under the guise of "correcting calvinism" you post finding fault with God quite often. Thread after thread, you twist what calvinists say.
We are quite content letting God be God. We know the judge of all the earth will do right.

You [winman, and van]would be better off if you let calvinists say what we say. If we want any of you three to be the "calvinist spokesmen" , we will let you know.

You have tried unsucessfully to turn the tables here. I do not blame God for anything as I clearly answered you earlier.Show where any of us blame God,then we can look at it.

 

Sure, the best way to refute Calvinism is to quote Calvinists (or Calvin) themselves.

http://www.vor.org/rbdisk/html/institutes/1_17.htm

Go down to Section 11.

It is one thing to say that God permits the devil and men to do evil, but that is not what Calvin says here. He says the devil and the ungodly cannot CONCEIVE mischief unless God not only permits, but commands it to happen.

Calvin was a very intelligent man, he knew what the word "conceive" means.

Now, I know in other places he denies God is the author of sin, but that is double-talk. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. And that is exactly what all Calvinists do. They say God ordains all things that come to pass, and then directly contradict themselves saying God is not the author of sin. This is a direct contradiction that cannot possibly be truth, but Calvinists believe it anyway.

 

Here are more statements from Calvin showing that he believed God willed, even decreed sin.

Here again Calvin says God wills men to do evil, and that men perpetrate all their wickedness, not merely by permission, but by the IMPULSE of God.

Then he makes the lame excuse that it is simply a mystery of the secret counsels of God that he cannot explain, and says we should not inquire into them.

Source;

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/r...eternal-predestination-of-god-by-john-calvin/

 

:tear::tear::tear:

 

EWF, I am making no judgement on the man John Calvin. I simply agreed that Winman had a valid point as the meaning of the textual comment he shared. You are welcome to call me ANYTHING you wish.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQPhdgLDIH0

 

Calvin even admits his view is an irreconcilable contradiction, that the "carnal" mind cannot possibly understand, but those with a godly mind like his can simply accept as a mystery. What arrogance!! If you agree with him you were godly, if you disagreed you were carnal and profane!

Calvin simply claimed folks who disagreed with him were ungodly and carnal, and Calvinists do the same today.

And yet, he agrees his view is a contradiction. :laugh:

 

Dave...I would rather reach out to you in unity as a Christian brother rather than focusing on petty differences. In beliefs!

If we are to argue at all may I suggest we contest over who does a better job taking care of widow's & orphans. :wavey::wavey::wavey:

 

I do not wish to be in a competition with you or any other brother or sister, I have enough spiritual challenges to keep me busy, not to mention the job of educating youthful minds as the benefits of mathematics in our world.

:love2:

 

No, it makes man the author sin. It's impossible for God to be the author of sin. It would be more possible for a square to be a circle than for God to be the author of sin. You are misreading(albeit purposefully now) what Calvin said. God works ALL things after the counsel of his will.

Was it God's will for Christ to die? Yep. There you go. Christ was unlawfully killed by the Jews. (murder is sin)

 

You err, this is proved by the fact that the Jews tried to kill Jesus at least twice before the appointed Passover day.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Here, the Jew attempted to stone Jesus, but Jesus hid himself from them and escaped. God could not have caused this attempt to kill Jesus, as it was not the appointed time. Jesus had to die on the Passover.

Luk 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

Here is another incident where the Jews attempted to cast Jesus off the brow of a hill to kill him, but Jesus escaped from them because it was not the appointed time.

These two incidents prove God did not cause or determine that the Jews would kill Jesus because it would have thwarted God's own plan that Jesus die on the Passover as a sacrifice for the sins of the people. God is not divided against himself.

No, God allowed the Jews to kill Jesus at the proper time. God willingly gave Jesus as a sacrifice, and Jesus willingly died as a sacrifice. Jesus did not have to die, he could have called on God to deliver him.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Jesus didn't have to die, he willingly allowed himself to be taken and crucified. This is what was determined.

God did not determine that the Jews would kill Jesus. Satan tried to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, and at least twice the Jews attempted to kill Jesus, but Jesus escaped all three times. God could not have caused these attempts to kill Jesus because it was not the proper time. The devil and the Jews already of their own free will desired to kill Jesus, God only allowed them to do so on the Passover day.

God foreknew the devil and the Jews would desire to kill Jesus, but he did not cause this, God never tempts any man to sin (James 1:13)

You err because you do not know the scriptures.

 

You err, this is proved by the fact that the Jews tried to kill Jesus at least twice before the appointed Passover day.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Here, the Jews attempted to stone Jesus, but Jesus hid himself from them and escaped. God could not have caused this attempt to kill Jesus, because Jesus had to die on the Passover for the sins of the people.

Luk 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.
30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

Here is another incident where the Jews attempted to kill Jesus, but Jesus escaped because it was not the appointed time for him to die.

God did not cause the Jews to attempt to kill Jesus here, or it would have thwarted God's own plan for Jesus to die as the Passover Lamb for the sins of the people. God is not divided against himself.

God knew the Jews would attempt to kill Jesus, but he did not cause it. God never tempts any man to sin (James 1:13)

Jesus did not have to die, God willingly offered him, and Jesus willingly offered himself.

Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

The devil tried to kill Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple, God did not cause this. At least twice before the crucifixion the Jews attempted to kill Jesus. God did not cause this either. God did not cause or determine the Jews to kill Jesus, he ALLOWED it to fulfill his purpose that Jesus would die for our sins. This is what was determined.

God does not cause people to sin, but he allows it. This is not what Calvin said, Calvin said the devil and the ungodly cannot CONCEIVE of evil unless God commands it. This is SERIOUS error.

 

This question is for learning, and not debating. If there are two groups mentioned in John, one before and one after the Resurrection, dealt with in different ways by God, how can one believe in covenant theology and follow that reasoning?

 

This has nothing to do with what I said, but nice try.

 

It has everything to do with this issue and you know it. God could not have caused the Jews to desire to kill Jesus before the appointed time, that would thwart God's very plans that Jesus die on the Passover. You know that.

Why would Jesus have to escape his Father's own plan? Nonsensical.

You will deny no matter what. God foreknew the Jews would kill Jesus, but he did not cause it. Twice Jesus escaped when the Jews tried to kill him, only when the Passover came did Jesus ALLOW himself to be taken and crucified.

 

so God didn't permit the evil action because it wasn't God's timing yet.... Thanks for agreeing with me and what you quoted.

Yes he did God works all things after the counsel of his will.

God allowed...sounds like what we were talking about. It was God's plan that the Jews would kill Jesus on a certain day and guess what, it happened..... It was not God's plan for it to happen earlier and guess what, it didn't happen.

No one has ever said that God tempts any man to sin. Not once have you seen that. But it sounds like you agree with us. God is sovereign over man sins and man cannot sin unless God allows him(as you gave evidence above) and God uses mans sin to accomplish his will(Christ's death on the cross, Joseph being sold).

God works all things after the counsel of his will.

 

They didn't do it. That's the point. They didn't do it. Get it? God didn't allow it to happen. God is sovereign an no one can do any sin with out God permitting it.

It wasn't his Father's plan so they didn't do it. Exactly Calvin's point.

God works all things after the counsel of his will. It was God's plan for Jesus to be killed by the Jews and a specific time and that's exactly what happened. It was not because God looked ahead to see if anyone wanted to kill. God wanted it at a certain time and worked all events to get that to happen.

 

Everyone agrees God ALLOWS sin, that is obvious.

Calvin did say God causes sin, he said the devil and the ungodly cannot even CONCEIVE of mischief (sin) unless God commanded it. Deny all you want, I posted the link where you can read for yourself.

You will deny no matter what, I already know that about you.