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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Apr 20, 2013.
What are your thoughts on this topic?
Who created evil - "created" as in created mountains, turnips, and galaxies?
No one. Evil to me is a state of being where there is no righteousness or holiness to be found. It's the absence of holiness. Sort of like when you dig a hole. If there is no dirt, there is no hole. If there was no holiness, there would be no absence of it - or evil.
I think when God said in Isaiah that He "created evil", he isn't talking about the concept of wickedness and unholiness. He is talking about bringing calamity on those who deserve His wrath.
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. This is what scripture say's, i must except it and not deny it whether i can explain it or not.
I'm with Scarlett. What evil are you talking about? Seems to me that one viable answer is, "the same thing that created God." He wasn't created. He has always been. Perhaps good and evil are apart of eternity and have always existed not as God but as a reality.
Certainly we always accept and never deny the Word of the God no matter our limited understanding of it. I agree with that. But surely we can study it and try our best to use scripture to interpret scripture.
Here's the same passage - in context- and from the Holman Christian Standard Bible:
I just don't believe that this passage is claiming that God created moral evil and wickedness. If He did create evil - abortion, homosexuality, hate, lies, - all things unholy and wicked, then God, Himself would be responsible for it.
It would appear the only reason so many versions of the bible were written is because people not liking what one version say's, re-writes a version to say what they want it to say. No one has a problem with God creating darkness but if God say's in the same verse, i create evil then because they don't want to believe this statement even though God said it they will run and find a translation that has watered it down.
Evil was not created. It is a byproduct.
Such a religous, high-sounding, yet pompous answer.
Scarlet provided an excellent reason why the Hebrew word which is often translated as "evil" means something else.
The translators of the KJV used a number of different English words to translate the same Hebrew word;
Genesis 24:50 – bad
Ge 38:7 wicked
Ge 41:19 badness
Ge 44:34 evil
Num 11:1 displeased (literally "it was evil in the ears")
Deut 9:18 wickedly
1 Samuel 17:28 naughtiness
1 Samuel 29:7 displease
2 Samuel 14:7 bad
2 Kings 4:41 harm
Nehemiah 2:1 sad, sorrow
Job 36:33 noise
Psalm 10:6 94:13; adversity
Proverbs 13:17 mischief
Ecc 7:3 sadness
Hosea 7:15 mischief
Rather than exult in your ignorance try to work through the problem and learn.
The KJV is such an old translation you need to spend some extra time and work out the meaning.
Isa*45:7 It is I that created light and darknesse, I make peace and trouble: yea euen I the Lorde do all these thinges.
Brother SM, here is what the Scofield notes say:
In fact, I have spent the last 20 or so minutes looking at all the commentators that I trust: Matthew Henry, Gill, Guzik, Clarke, Coffman, and others. They ALL say the same thing about the word “evil”. It isn’t sin. It isn’t a moral evil. It’s the punishing consequences that one must bear when he falls under God’s wrath.
Here's the Coverdale and Geneva versions - both before the King James. They use "trouble" and "euill" interchangeably and do not disagree with each other.
No one is trying to water anything down. We are all trying to understand to the fullest what God means. And I think we do.
I feel sorry for people that can't put their trust in just one translation of the bible. If i have to run to different bibles to get an answer that i am comfortable with, before long i won't trust any versions of the bible to be true. It don't lead to getting smarter but only to doubt any of the word of God.
Yes indeed. It really is too bad that most people who talk about such things can't read the Bible in Greek or Hebrew.
I real several translations, including the KJ and have NO doubts about the Word of God. I have no trouble with the KJV and a few others using the word, evil, in that passage.
But I know - due TO study that the word doesn't mean sin.
As far putting one's trust in one singular translation - even the translators who worked on the King James Bible didn't believe that.
Here's what they had to say about varied translations in their preface which I don't think is printed anymore in new King James bibles.
So i guess the translators of the king James version didn't know Greek or Hebrew, or they just made a mistake and put the word evil in that scripture.
We should see all it translate to and the reason for what happens around us
19 I remember my affliction and my wandering,
the bitterness and the gall.
20 I well remember them,
and my soul is downcast within me.
21 Yet this I call to mind
and therefore I have hope:
22 Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.
24 I say to myself, “The Lord is my portion;
therefore I will wait for him.”
25 The Lord is good to those whose hope is in him,
to the one who seeks him;
26 it is good to wait quietly
for the salvation of the Lord.
27 It is good for a man to bear the yoke
while he is young.
28 Let him sit alone in silence,
for the Lord has laid it on him.
29 Let him bury his face in the dust—
there may yet be hope.
30 Let him offer his cheek to one who would strike him,
and let him be filled with disgrace.
31 For no one is cast off
by the Lord forever.
32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
so great is his unfailing love.
33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to anyone.
Ezekiel 18 :
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Though they undoubtedly knew Greek and Hebrew (and, likely, Aramaic and Latin), there are several mistakes in the KJV translation--though it is still an excellent translation.
No translation is perfect--that's the nature of translation. We have good and reliable translations, but perfect? No. But, then the goal of anyone truly interested in scripture is to ask: (1) What does it say; (2) What does it mean; and (3) What is it telling me to do.
Most translations are adequate in #1, even the KJV. It is the job of the expositor of scripture to get to the meat of #2. And, sometimes, the translators make those exegetical decisions, and they make them wrongly. #3 can be done using most translations--provided #1 and #2 are done properly. After all, our goal is not to answer the questions: "What does this mean to me?" Rather, our goal is to ask, "What hath the Lord said?"
Yeah, those KJV translators and King James who couldn't just trust the Geneva Bible...I feel sorry for those guys
Because you know something doesn't mean you won't ever make a mistake. And in reverse, because you make a mistake doesn't mean you don't know something. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes. Secondly, words have multiple meanings. In the verse in Isaiah, it is not saying that God creates moral evil. No one should believe that God creates moral evil. While evil can mean moral evil, it can also refer to what we would call disaster or calamity.
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea even the wicked for the day of evil, Prov 16:4. Here is another verse saying that God not only creates evil but he made or creates the wicked for the day of evil. Gods way's and thoughts are certainly above man's way's and thoughts. As the heaven is above the earth so is Gods way's above our ways, Isa 55:8 You thought i was altogether such a one as thyself, psa 50:21.
We must live on every word that comes from the mouth of God, and not one verse. Here you go you unbeliever who follow their own evil desires not God.
12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
That scripture is not just referring to Satan, but to King Tyre, created blameless until wickedness was found in you not created, yes God created who became evil, wicked found in him.
We all are wicked headed for destruction and it isn't for what man uses these verses for. These verses are telling the wicked to run to the Lord the only one that can save them.
It is telling them to repent and live and you all are using God word for your own motives not God's to turn the wicked to the Lord the only one who can save them.
One sin we are all condemned not one of you are saved without the Lord. He is our sure foundation, They were preaching of the one to come Our Lord and our God we know as Jesus Christ.
The message is to turn people to God not to tell them, they can't come.
The word of God is life and Spirit for the dead.
Repent or Perish
13 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”