Who did Christ come to save?

Whatever;
Were you in Christ when you were elected? If so then you must have fallen from grace at some point to become so depraved as to reject Him, before you stopped rejecting him because God just came a long and put you back in Him again. Hmmmmmmmm.
We were chosen in Him and He was before the foundation of the world. Not us. We were not chosen before the foundation of the world.
In the Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

Aside from "purchasing redemption" being kind of redundant, since "redemption" means "to purchase or buy," the Bible does state that Jesus died to redeem us.

Hebrews 9:15 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Titus 2:14 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Galatians 4:4-5 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Mike, this is the second time today you have posted something in clear contradiction of what Scripture says (or perhaps one of them might have been posted last night). Please take the time to review what Scripture says, regardless of what side you come down. It is increasingly looking like you are just being disagreeable, rather than posting substance.

 

Christ came to save sinners as is documented throughout the Word of God. I think we all have to read I Timothy 1:15 again.

Does it say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save elected sinners, of whom I am chief' or does He say that '. . . Christ Jesus came into the world, to save sinners, of whom I am chief.'

The Lord God speaking through the Apostle Paul says one of these two phrases. Which one is it?

Calvinism is an interesting and twisted quasi-theology that wrenches the Scripture and suggests that the Lord has strands of partiality that have not been excised from His holy Character [Deuteronomy 10:17; Romans 2:11; I Peter 1:17].

Biblical theology portrays the Lord as not desiring that any should perish [II Peter 3:9] thus, John 3:16.

I sense that some of the readers are about to do 'the twist.'

 

Calvinists say the latter, but you would have to answer for yourself.

As we have shown before, you have it exactly backwards. In Calvinism God is not partial. He saves without respect for anything in man. In your view, God is partial towards those who are smart enough to believe. He is partial towards those who live at a time in history or in a place where they are more likely to hear the gospel. There is no way, in your theology, that God is not partial towards those in 21st century america compared to those in fifth century America. In the 21st century, there is a much greater chance to be saved because there is a much greater chance to hear. In your view, God is unfair towards those who lived in 5th century America. But of course you know that. You just don't like it.

So does Calvinism.

You see Ray, you are still wrong.

[ October 29, 2005, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

It says He came to save sinners -- nothing is said about "elect sinners".

What is more in 1John 4:14 "God sent His son to be the Saviour of the World"

That is true Ray.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Pastor,

Larry, with all due respect your logic does not befit a fifth grader. If the Lord only saved you out of all the rest of us out of all humankind, He would have had greater respect or recognition or favor toward you than the teeming billions that had ever lived on earth. If you have children or grandchildren, give them the illustration and have them explain the facts to you. Are you sure you ever went to college?

Another of your failed logic is you say that our view is that we were smart enough to be saved, while the non-elect were special education quality of mentality. If you knew your Bible as well as you perceive your Calvinism you would know that the Bible says that 'a wayfaring man though a FOOL, 'does not have to miss Heaven.' So me being saved has nothing to do with my level of intellect, but is your lame excuse in saying the saved ones were just smart men and women.

Another attempt of you to show yourself smart, is to say that people in our world have more exposure to the Gospel. Not necessarily so. All of the upper tier of countries in Africa is 98-99% Muslim with Indonesia being the largest Muslim nation in the world. Beyond this our school systems have poisoned American school children into believing that human beings are the product of millions of years of Evolution. Some slime mutated and became a substance that moved up the chain of matter and became a primate and through millions of years evolved into a cave man or woman. And now we have people like you and me, only my logic befits Biblical understanding.

Study some history and you will find there was always a Christian culture, that would not conform to Roman Catholicism who had to hid away in the highlands of nations or in desolate places because of their orthodox beliefs. They would not give up or be without their Holy Bible. Those Christians who wanted to stay with the system of Catholicism admittedly were willing to sit in their spiritual unenlightened state of affairs. They were unwilling to come out of the darkness of their age.

Don't blame the Lord my Savior for your lack of understanding or probably more correctly stated your rebellion against the Words of the Lord God as written in His precious Word.

You like to overlay your theory over the clarity of the clearly spoken truths of the holy Bible as Bob and others have tried to show to you, for the betterment of your own soul and those sheep who have you as their guide.

Do not mix error with truth by saying that Calvinists also believe that God does not want souls to enter Hell. If He were to elect some because of His all wise plan, He being sovereign, in the sense that you view it, by necessity of His own unrestrained will has to turn the remaining souls into the Lake of Fire. If not He would not be sovereign in Calvinism's lopsided distortions of the faith that was 'once delivered to the saints.'

I think I have pointed out at least four points of your misguided logic that has been elevated to your eyes and heart for all Calvinists who are still drinking at the fountain of medieval Roman Catholicism via the philosophical flavor of their geat saint and theologian, St. Augustine.

God save you from the concepts that you write in your posts; after awhile you might really believe them.

We understand your logic of 'elect sinners' in I Timothy 1:15. This is what made Calvin so substandard to the Word of God, because he either added or detracted from God's words to the church along with more than a tad of ungodly wisdom, logic and alleged, Divine illumination.

 

Good point about "the obvious".

In fact Pastor Larry is exposing the flaw of Calvinism in showing that its doctrine of "arbitrary selection" is in fact "pure partiality" and directly contradicts the argument of God in Romans 2:11 where God says "God is NOT partial"!!

Some have supposed that a “judgment” that is impartial as Paul points to in vs 6 and 11 must “only have failing cases”. But Paul shows in vs 7 that such is not the case. The “Good News” does not require God to arbitrarily be “partial to the FEW of Matt 7” as some have supposed. Rather it allows for God to be “impartial” and to SAVE mankind on that basis!

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

As we see - THE CONTEXT shows that God's impartial judgment RESULTS in SOME having eternal life and some getting hell based on an IMPARTIAL evaluation in the CONTEXT of Rom 2:4 "The call to repentance".

In Christ,

Bob

 

In my previous point about the way God causes Calvinists to expose the flaws of Calvinism in their own attempts to promote Calvinism (like the prophets of Baal coming together so Elijah could destroy them, or the Egyptian army willingly rushing into the sea of their own destruction) -- you may well see an argument for the Soevereignty of God AGAINST the will of man --- which is in fact an argument in favor of one of the doctrines of Calvinism.

I don't want Calvinists to think I am blind to seeing the sovereignty of God overriding the will of man -- and that case posted by Pastor Larry and responded to above is a perfect example!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Larry;

Just how is it Larry that any of what you've posted contradicts what I have said in this thread? Not one single thing you've posted proves we are Chosen before the foundation of the world. Not one Larry. You just lost it on this thread. You didn't have anything to attack me for so you just made something up.

This is what I said;
"Redemption is what he did, not what he died for."
Are you saying this isn't what Christ did when He died on the cross.
Please show me just how this contradicts scripture?. Can you at least be that honest?
When we are in Him is when we are chosen.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Instead of making wild accusations why not prove why you have chosen to accuse me of being in contradiction of scripture on this thread. A very dishonest accusation at that. Christ death was the payment for our sins. I think you just want to argue any point for fear of possible agreement.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

For this reason they could not believe , because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

Now how does that show He is drawing all men to Him? That must be the reverse enlightenment process. It must be reverse draw-mosis.

Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

Jesus did not have to come to judge the world......the entire world meaning every man, woman, and child stood condemned already.

If He saves any out of the world it is by His pure amazing grace.

Some people will not ever believe. May I ask since so many people use the "draw and enlighten" all men to come to Him is that what He was doing here?

"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."

Sure does not sound like being blinded is much of an enlightenment to me!

Cant see, cant understand, it seems that it was made impossible for them to turn for healing.

Is it because they have free-will?

they still would not believe in him . This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? "

I would say God certainly put on a remarkably wonderful and credible display of power;

Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence

But they still would not believe......because the arm of the Lord had not been revealed to them.

They are not drawn...not enlightened...but rather held in blindness.

Sure does not sound like freewill to me if yopu are held in blindness.

Come on Arminian folks....get a grip would ya!

KJB

 

By contrast to that "story line" we have God DENYING the idea that HE is to blame for he fall of HIS CHOSEN ONES! (Yep - that would be Israel - THE CHOSEN of God).

In Romans 11 Paul “shows” the fall of the Jews from the Vine – of Christ (I am the Vine – you are the Branches) but also shows that God continues to love them and seek them EVEN though they are out of His will and in rebellion – and lost. For outside of Christ there is truly “no salvation”. But “the branches are cast into the fire” in the ultimate sense – if they ‘continue in unbelief”.

Paul is looking to "MOTIVATE" the lost “individuals” among the Jews showing his own Individual willingness to trade places. He does not conclude that God will irresistible force them to be saved. Instead of using God's power to alter the will as the "means" to save them, God uses the appeal to CHOICE,
imperfect "motives" - the APPEAL is made and the hope is that some will take it.

Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all)

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11.

Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

They become a warning to US as WE are in THEIR former position.

God desires to RE-establish them WITH US in that FORMER position IN the body of Christ. (Every branch In Me that does not bear fruit is cast into the fire – John 15). Yet here we see that God is able to “graft them in again” – so they can come back IF They do not Continue in unbelief.

And yet all this does not REJECT the plan of salvation as it continually unfolds in the NT - in fact it explicitly relies upon it. Including the future events of the coming
Messiah as described in Isaiah 53. But they ALL benefit from the God who "gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does NOT exist" Rom 4:17 so that God
called Abraham the Father of many nations - while as yet he had no children.

The Cross of Christ - benefits of forgiveness already applied PRE cross.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position.

Yet God shows His CONTINUED willingness, purpose, intent and interest in "Grafting them in again". He never presents the fall of Israel as "God's fickle choice for the CHOSEN" -- rather it is "Their UNBELIEF" – it is the rebellion of the CHOSEN.

Note that “you” is to the INDIVIDUAL reading the letter and – it is on an INDIVIDUAL basis that they stand IN Christ. Trying to “ignore this inconvenient detail” in an effort to save OSAS is not “exegesis” it is EISEGESIS. And this comes as a surprise to many.

-----------------------

Just when KJB was ready to blame it all on God - Paul shows that it is only THEIR UNBELIEF that prevents them and Paul shows that HE TOO is a JEW - HE IS ONE OF THEM!!

 

INSTEAD of God working diligently for the doom of HIS CHOSEN (as KJB promotes in his myopic Bible-context-denying interpretation above )

What does it mean for him to say that "HE CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received HIM NOT" - is there EFFORT, concern, ACTION, WORK being claimed on God's part?

Let's take a closer look.

==========================================

Revew: God's Will for mankind…. Yes Really!

 

Bob,

I have not blamed God for anything.

This statement of yours shows how corrupt, bent, twisted, and perverted you are.

Show me where I blamed God for anything?

Have you ever thought about false witness?

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away....wonderful is the Lord in all His ways.

If God blinds some to save some you have not proved He enlightens ALL.

It is proof He blinded some.

And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables; so that they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand; lest they should turn again, and be forgiven." (4:11-12)

Sure sounds like He enlightened everyone.

KJB

 

Bob,

And don't think I am going to read through your books, been there and done that already.

You reveal nothing new. It is the same excellent Scripture defined very poorly.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

All of Him!

For God who commanded the light to shine in darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Now that is what I call real enlightenment!

He commands.....and people see!

He does not command.....and people remain blinded.

KJB

 

TCassidy,

Your sense of logic is also marked by human frailty. You assume I may be a Baptist of some kind. I know I have not revealed my denominational preference or membership in any particular denomination.

You would make a good Reformed Baptist. They believe the Devil's lies even in the face their God given sense of human logic with a Bible in their hands.

Larry's beliefs are merely one man's opinion. If he had a shrine with his image in a garden, I am sure you would take bus tours there to see it, Mr. Cassidy.

 

King James Bond,

If I am thinking your thoughts you are inferring that God is electing some of the Jews to Hell, from reading your post. A reference like yours is also written in the fourth Gospel chapter 12:38-41. This is typical of Calvinists who take things out of context, to patch up a sloppy theology.

Now read John 12:32-41 and you will see that Jesus said about Himself that He would 'be lifted up from the earth , and will draw only the elect to Himself.' Not so! Jesus goes on to say to the Jews believe in Me while you have the Light among your people. He also says, '. . . lest darkness come on you.' The appeal to receive Jesus was offered to all the Jews in this Scriptural setting. In verse 36 Christ desires that they will become '. . . the children of Light.'

John says that even having seen the many miracles the Jews refused to believe. If I would have been there and saw on of Jesus, miracles I would have been first to admit and believe that Jesus was Lord. The above words are the Biblical and more Arminian truth. Now, Mr. Bond, after all that Jesus said above, He now says because of their refusal to receive Me, I will blind their eyes, and hardent their heart.

We agree that He has the right to do this since they had every opportunity to welcome Jesus as their Messiah.

And since you like Isaiah you need to read, Isaiah 63:10 which teaches 'Resistible Grace.' Also, in Isaiah 65:2 you will see the Lord opening His arms to all Jewish people and again in verse 12 where it says that 'He called and they would not answer.' The truth is they did hear the Lord but they refused to even answer Him. The Lord spake and they refused to hear, plus they wilfully did evil in the eyes of the Lord of holiness. They chose sin and the Word says, the Lord hated that sin.

Scripture in the O.T. and the N.T. never even hints that the Lord autocratically selects some for Hell and some for Heaven. This is antithetical to God's will toward all sinners. His love is made manifest by His death on the Cross [John 3:16].

Bite down on this truth especially you who have inhaled Calvinism as though it were Divine truth. And please, do not choke on the 'meat of the Word' [Hebrews 5:12].

 

Thanks, Ray, I can always count on you to cheer me up.