Who did Christ come to save?

Ray,

No I am not saying God elects people to Hell. All people are naturally bound for Hell. One sin merits Hell and all of its fury.

God elects to save some people from Hell...and it has nothing to do of their sin or not. He saves them even though they are sinners and deserving of Hell.

If someone is blinded even if God was to use another agent (Satan for example) people are not going against what was already in their very nature.

People are not free-willed...they are bound in sin.

The call or (appeal as you call it) is to all men and not only Jews.

We are also told to be perfect. We are told never tell one lie. We are told never to have hate in our hearts. We are told to love God with all of our hearts minds and souls. Would you like me to make you a list of all the things we are told to do and are incapable of doing because we are sinners?

There you go again praising yourself. Do you ever find time to thank God for your eyes? Do you ever thank God that you are able to see?

You say you would call Him Lord back then......but you do not even do that now.

Lord; one having power and authority over others: a : a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due

You do not admit He has power over anybody at all. You preach of a helpless god that does nothing to save people.

He simply wound up the clock of creation and stands back hoping people come to Him according to you. It makes no sense to me at all.

My God saves people. He is active in their salvation. He is not just sitting back hoping things happen by chance.

He calls people with real effect. He draws people with a real draw. He enlightens with real power. All these works of His are with real effect.

I agree He has the right to do anything He wants no matter if people like it or not.

Would you take a little time and read through this confession of faith and check it against Bible text given? I will post it next.

KJB

 

Ray,

(Chapter 3 tells us that certain people are saved by the will of God while others are left in their sin of blindness to condemnation in justice. This is proof that there is no condition in man of himself that makes him willing. It is only by pure amazing grace that people are saved. If a person is saved it is by His will, His purpose, His love, His grace, without any condition or cause in man of man to move man toward God. God makes people willing.)

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

(Chapter 5 is proof of limited atonement. The elect are redeemed and neither are any others but the elect only.)

6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

7._____ As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of his church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.
( 1 Timothy 4:10; Amos 9:8, 9; Isaiah 43:3-5 )

(Chapter 8 proves limited atonement as well as security in Christ our Lord);

1._____ It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, his only begotten Son, according to the covenant made between them both, to be the mediator between God and man; the prophet, priest, and king; head and saviour of the church, the heir of all things, and judge of the world; unto whom he did from all eternity give a people to be his seed and to be by him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.
( Isaiah 42:1; 1 Peter 1:19, 20; Acts 3:22; Hebrews 5:5, 6; Psalms 2:6; Luke 1:33; Ephesians 1:22, 23; Hebrews 1:2; Acts 17:31; Isaiah 53:10; John 17:6; Romans 8:30 )

4._____ This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake, which that he might discharge he was made under the law, and did perfectly fulfil it, and underwent the punishment due to us, which we should have borne and suffered, being made sin and a curse for us; enduring most grievous sorrows in his soul, and most painful sufferings in his body; was crucified, and died, and remained in the state of the dead, yet saw no corruption: on the third day he arose from the dead with the same body in which he suffered, with which he also ascended into heaven, and there sitteth at the right hand of his Father making intercession, and shall return to judge men and angels at the end of the world.
( Psalms 40:7, 8; Hebrews 10:5-10; John 10:18; Gal 4:4; Matthew 3:15; Galatians 3:13; Isaiah 53:6; 1 Peter 3:18; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Matthew 26:37, 38; Luke 22:44; Matthew 27:46; Acts 13:37; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; John 20:25, 27; Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 9:24; Acts 10:42; Romans 14:9, 10; Acts 1:11; 2 Peter 2:4 )

5._____ The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of God, procured reconciliation, and purchased an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto Him.
( Hebrews 9:14; Hebrews 10:14; Romans 3:25, 26; John 17:2; Hebrews 9:15 )

6._____ Although the price of redemption was not actually paid by Christ till after his incarnation, yet the virtue, efficacy, and benefit thereof were communicated to the elect in all ages, successively from the beginning of the world, in and by those promises, types, and sacrifices wherein he was revealed, and signified to be the seed which should bruise the serpent's head; and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, being the same yesterday, and to-day and for ever.
( 1 Corinthians 4:10; Hebrews 4:2; 1 Peter 1:10, 11; Revelation 13:8; Hebrews 13:8 )

8._____ To all those for whom Christ hath obtained eternal redemption, he doth certainly and effectually apply and communicate the same, making intercession for them; uniting them to himself by his Spirit, revealing unto them, in and by his Word, the mystery of salvation, persuading them to believe and obey, governing their hearts by his Word and Spirit, and overcoming all their enemies by his almighty power and wisdom, in such manner and ways as are most consonant to his wonderful and unsearchable dispensation; and all of free and absolute grace, without any condition foreseen in them to procure it.
( John 6:37; John 10:15, 16; John 17:9; Romans 5:10; John 17:6; Ephesians 1:9; 1 John 5:20; Romans 8:9, 14; Psalms 110:1; 1 Corinthians 15:25, 26; John 3:8; Ephesians 1:8 )

9._____ This office of mediator between God and man is proper only to Christ, who is the prophet, priest, and king of the church of God; and may not be either in whole, or any part thereof, transferred from him to any other.
( 1 Timothy 2:5 )

10.____ This number and order of offices is necessary; for in respect of our ignorance, we stand in need of his prophetical office; and in respect of our alienation from God, and imperfection of the best of our services, we need his priestly office to reconcile us and present us acceptable unto God; and in respect to our averseness and utter inability to return to God, and for our rescue and security from our spiritual adversaries, we need his kingly office to convince, subdue, draw, uphold, deliver, and preserve us to his heavenly kingdom.
( John 1:18; Colossians 1:21; Galatians 5:17; John 16:8; Psalms 110:3; Luke 1:74, 75 )

(Chapter 10 proves that it is God that does the calling and it is absolutely effectual. It is proof that there is no condition in and of the man that wills or works towards salvation. It is all the work of God and no one can boast of anything at all. It proves that we by nature did not have free-will but were rather as dead sinners deserving of eternal punishment. It was only out of pure amazing grace that He enlightened us by His work on our minds and hearts renewing our rotten wills. It shows that those blessed with salvation (the elect) are passive while God is active.)

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

(Chapter 11 teaches us about justification and limited atonement. It proves that certain sinners are reconciled and justified by Jesus Christ. It is not because people believed or because they were willing. It is because of Jesus Christ and the gift of faith to His people.)

1._____ Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
( Romans 3:24; Romans 8:30; Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19; Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Romans 5:17 )

2._____ Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
( Romans 3:28; Galatians 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26 )

3._____ Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf; yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
( Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; Isaiah 53:5, 6; Romans 8:32; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 3:26; Ephesians 1:6,7; Ephesians 2:7 )

4._____ God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 4:25; Colossians 1:21,22; Titus 3:4-7 )

Such confessions (and I can find more) show by Scripture proof text the points of Arminianism that were proved to be heretical by the council of Dordt.

We can be assured that the doctrines of total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistable grace, and perserverance of the saints are based on the sound and trustworthy Words of God.

You can find the LBC here online and there are also many other sound confessions of faith that show such truths. http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689bc.html

 

King James Bond,

I understand you accusations as to all that I don't believe and do believe. You do not know me from Adam so you cannot make your allegations as to what you have been taught that people like me believe.

You talk to me in the form of questioning what I believe and I will respond, so you really know what the Spirit of God has taught me through the study of the Bible.

I will wait and see what you are curious about.

 

Ray,

I can only go by what you post on here.

God bless.

KJB

 

Just how is it Larry that any of what you've posted contradicts what I have said in this thread? Not one single thing you've posted proves we are Chosen before the foundation of the world. Not one Larry.</font>[/QUOTE]What leads you to believe this thread was about election before the foundation of the world? What leads you to believe my post was addressing that? Go back and read. You said (and I quote) Just where is it that the Bible says Jesus death purchased redemption. I answered that question for you. I did not intend to address any other point.

We can all see from your original post that I didn't make anything up. You asked a question and I answered it.

Except you left out the first part, which is what I was responding to. In leaving that part out, you misrepresent the intent of my post.

Of course not. It is what he did. And as the verses above show, it is what he died to do. You made a strange dichotomy is saying "He did it, but he didn't die to do it." That doesn't seem to make much sense as I read it. Perhaps you meant something else, or perhaps I misread it.

Where did I say it contradicted Scripture? And how is honesty involved on my part? Remember, you said Just where is it that the Bible says Jesus death purchased redemption. I answered that. I did not address anything else.

I did. You said Christ didn't die to purchase redemption. I pointed out several verses that say Christ did die to redeem us. Therefore, I used Scripture to show your assertion wrong. There was nothing dishonest about my accusation.

Yes it was.

Really??? I just agreed with you. In fact, I agree with you on many things.

But on this issue, you made a statement: Christ didn't die to purchase redemption. It clearly contradicts the Bible that says Christ died "to redeem us."

 

Ray, I won't addrss most or your post since I don't have time or interest, and since it is filled with a lot of logical and theological fallacies, not to mention a few unwarranted personal attacks.

This is truly sad. I am begging you guys to clean up this nonsense. Is this really the best you can do, Ray? Come on ... Help out here. YOu don't have to agree with me, but you can be civil. And that goes for all of you.

How so?

The Bible teaches us that God's thoughts and ways are above ours, that our hearts are deceitful (Jer 17:9), darkened, ignorant, and hardened (Eph 4:17-19). Therefore, I don't think this is a good method of doing theology.

Really??? Where did I say that? I didn't say anything about special education. My point is that it is foolish and stupid to reject Christ. Those who accept are making the wise and smart decision. Therefore, in your view, God has respect towards the smart.

Not sure what the last part of this is saying, since it doesn't seem to be a complete sentence, but you are correct. Your intellect has nothing to do with it, nor does mine (see above on intellect). But you have a hard time being consistent in your position.

I didn't say that, did I? I believe, if you read, I used the word "America," comparing 21st and 5th century America. Isn't that right? If I weren't so lazy, and pretty confident of what I said, I would go back and look it up, but I am pretty sure you didn't say what I said.

Yes indeed. BUt the gospel is in more countries today then ever before. That is undeniable.

That isn't really the point here Ray, nor is it true. For most of human history, there was a group of people who were not Christian, didn't fight the Catholic church, didn't even have a Bible. They were called "ancient people." They lived prior to the time of Christ. But that's just a small point.

I haven't blamed him for anything, nor has there been any demonstration of my lack of understanding. You have misquoted me twice already, and missed the poitn on several occasions.

This is impossible. If I don't mix truth with error, then I can't assert this. Only by lying can I say that God wants souls to enter hell.

"I think" is the operative word. What "you think" is irrelevant. We can all see there are several fallacies here in your attempted rebuttal.

Perhaps, Ray, we can get past this to a biblical question. In the gospels, Christ says to Bethsaida and Chorazin that if he had done the works there in Tyre and Sidon, Tyre and Sidon would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Was God partial against Tyre and Sidon by not doing the very thing that God knew would bring repentance?

[ October 31, 2005, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Pastor Larry,

You said, 'Perhaps, Ray, we can get past this to a biblical question. In the gospels, Christ says to Bethsaida and Chorazin that if he had done the works there in Tyre and Sidon, Tyre and Sidon would have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Was God partial against Tyre and Sidon by not doing the very thing that God knew would bring repentance?'

In Mark 15:21 we read of one called Simon a Cyrenian who carried Jesus' Cross. He was from Libya in norther Africa many hundreds of miles away from Jerusalem. In fact Act 2:10 tells us that on the Day of Pentecost people were from all parts of the then known world including Libya.

So whether Jesus preached in Tyre and Sidon does not make a difference. People heard of Jesus' healing but many just did not bother to go to hear His message. They are without excuse and without hope in the future life.

Regards,
Ray

 

I guess, Ray, my question is this: Was God "fair" to Tyre and Sidon since he did not do the very thing that he knew would bring repentance from them, and therefore salvation.

In other words, it appears that God says, "This will cause Tyre and Sidon to repent, but I will not do it." How is that not "partial" by your definition?

I agree that all are without excuse and without hope. But that's not exactly the point here.

 

Hi Larry;

We have to remember that the advent of Christ was not only predestined but prophesized so that we would know He was God.
It was fair to the whole world even though Christ didn't preach through out the whole world. He didn't say that Salvation wasn't available to them, because He didn't visit them.
I believe that He visited the most rebellious and the hardest. The ones who were hardest to convince.

I don't see anything negative in what He said about Tyre and Sidon. It stands to reason that if they would have repented they would still repent. In order for your claim about them to be true you would have to be able to prove that they weren't saved at a later time. All that Christ did was not recorded, I'm sure.

From another post;

This is what I said;

He died for the whole world.

You miss quoted me when you said I said this;
"He did it, but he didn't die to do it."
My Point is that Christ died for the world His act was our redemption. He didn't die for redemption, He died for us.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike